For the atheists..

PBulldog2 wrote:

Nekochan wrote:

Bob wrote:

Ghost_Rider1 wrote:I Do you think that your god had a plan to kill 24 people with 7 of those being children?

Come to think of it, I've never heard the loved one of anyone killed in a tornado (or a hurricane or any other disaster) give God credit for that.
It's the strangest thing. Only the survivors seem to want to give him the credit. Go figure.

Good point, Bob.
But have you ever heard a parent who lost a child say that God helped them through it?

OK, I've read the whole thread now. And Neko, you nailed the whole issue with your question above. It's not about what happens - those things over which we have no control - it's how we mange to get through those bad times. That's when faith in a higher power, God, the force, the source or whatever a person believes can bring a person through.

It's not the good times when we need faith and God the most, is it? It's our darkest hours, when we think we cannot go on.

Oh and I love all of Bob's questions too. Makes us think, doesn't it? Even though we don't have all the answers. None of us do!

Nekochan wrote:

Ghost_Rider1 wrote:

Nekochan wrote:

bluemoon wrote:

Nekochan wrote:

Lurch wrote:If I was to judge a politician by their religion I couldn't vote at all..
You just have to let some things slide.. Picking between two evils is kinda tricky..

I understand. Makes sense.

But still, some people who were highly critical of Bush's religious beliefs and even called him a fanatic completely give Obama a pass. And today still, Christians are bashed and called all kinds of derogatory things by people who seem to think that Obama is God's gift to the world.

Christians are supposed to be persecuted and called names. It brings them more glory in heaven. They should forgive it, and then call it an opportunity to show how different and Christian they can be. Complaining years later isn't evidence of knowing what the Bible teaches.

What does heaven and forgiveness have to do with some atheists bashing Christians while supporting Obama while ignoring his references to God?

How do you know that it is atheists that are the Bush and Christian bashers? I suspect that it is the various denominations bashing each other. Catholics have been bashing Protestants and vice versa for ages. Pentecostals have been bashing the Baptists for years, but as long as I have claimed atheism I have never heard another atheist bash Christianity. We pretty much leave the Christians to their own devices, but of course there is always that fringe element in every organization.

Well, yes, different groups bash each other. But no, I am talking specifically about liberal atheists, including on this forum, who have called Christians weak minded and foolish, etc for having a belief in God. But then they say nothing when Obama declares that "God has a plan". Just recently, Seaoat had some flooding problems and he mentioned God's plan and he was called foolish or some such thing. But I have never seen a liberal on here call Obama foolish or weak for his proclamations about God.

In all honesty I am not sure who you are taking about. I thought that I was the only person on the forum that has publically proclaimed to be an atheist.

Ghost_Rider1 wrote:

Nekochan wrote:

Ghost_Rider1 wrote:

Nekochan wrote:

bluemoon wrote:

Nekochan wrote:

Lurch wrote:If I was to judge a politician by their religion I couldn't vote at all..
You just have to let some things slide.. Picking between two evils is kinda tricky..

I understand. Makes sense.

But still, some people who were highly critical of Bush's religious beliefs and even called him a fanatic completely give Obama a pass. And today still, Christians are bashed and called all kinds of derogatory things by people who seem to think that Obama is God's gift to the world.

Christians are supposed to be persecuted and called names. It brings them more glory in heaven. They should forgive it, and then call it an opportunity to show how different and Christian they can be. Complaining years later isn't evidence of knowing what the Bible teaches.

What does heaven and forgiveness have to do with some atheists bashing Christians while supporting Obama while ignoring his references to God?

How do you know that it is atheists that are the Bush and Christian bashers? I suspect that it is the various denominations bashing each other. Catholics have been bashing Protestants and vice versa for ages. Pentecostals have been bashing the Baptists for years, but as long as I have claimed atheism I have never heard another atheist bash Christianity. We pretty much leave the Christians to their own devices, but of course there is always that fringe element in every organization.

Well, yes, different groups bash each other. But no, I am talking specifically about liberal atheists, including on this forum, who have called Christians weak minded and foolish, etc for having a belief in God. But then they say nothing when Obama declares that "God has a plan". Just recently, Seaoat had some flooding problems and he mentioned God's plan and he was called foolish or some such thing. But I have never seen a liberal on here call Obama foolish or weak for his proclamations about God.

In all honesty I am not sure who you are taking about. I thought that I was the only person on the forum that has publically proclaimed to be an atheist.

Those who have bashed Christians know who they are. Almost all of them never have a word to say when our President, the leader of the free world, expresses his belief in "fairy tales". You would think that if they think it's so foolish to believe that they would be more concerned about Obama's beliefs than they are about the beliefs of other forum members.

And Neko, I have to question the motives of those who attack others' spiritual beliefs. What do they have to gain by doing this? Why do they even do it? It seems if they were solid in their own beliefs - or lack of - they would not feel the need to attack and demean others. Again, what does a person gain by this sort of behavior? A fleeting sense of superiority? A brief adrenaline tingle from ripping apart another poster? What?

All behavior has meaning, but even trying to explain that type of behavior is beyond me.

I do find it intriguing (and telling) that none of those posters have responded to your question.

(And Ghost, Neko is not referring to you, I'm certain.)

Nekochan wrote:

Ghost_Rider1 wrote:

Nekochan wrote:

Ghost_Rider1 wrote:

Nekochan wrote:

bluemoon wrote:

Nekochan wrote:

Lurch wrote:If I was to judge a politician by their religion I couldn't vote at all..
You just have to let some things slide.. Picking between two evils is kinda tricky..

I understand. Makes sense.

But still, some people who were highly critical of Bush's religious beliefs and even called him a fanatic completely give Obama a pass. And today still, Christians are bashed and called all kinds of derogatory things by people who seem to think that Obama is God's gift to the world.

Christians are supposed to be persecuted and called names. It brings them more glory in heaven. They should forgive it, and then call it an opportunity to show how different and Christian they can be. Complaining years later isn't evidence of knowing what the Bible teaches.

What does heaven and forgiveness have to do with some atheists bashing Christians while supporting Obama while ignoring his references to God?

How do you know that it is atheists that are the Bush and Christian bashers? I suspect that it is the various denominations bashing each other. Catholics have been bashing Protestants and vice versa for ages. Pentecostals have been bashing the Baptists for years, but as long as I have claimed atheism I have never heard another atheist bash Christianity. We pretty much leave the Christians to their own devices, but of course there is always that fringe element in every organization.

Well, yes, different groups bash each other. But no, I am talking specifically about liberal atheists, including on this forum, who have called Christians weak minded and foolish, etc for having a belief in God. But then they say nothing when Obama declares that "God has a plan". Just recently, Seaoat had some flooding problems and he mentioned God's plan and he was called foolish or some such thing. But I have never seen a liberal on here call Obama foolish or weak for his proclamations about God.

In all honesty I am not sure who you are taking about. I thought that I was the only person on the forum that has publically proclaimed to be an atheist.

Those who have bashed Christians know who they are. Almost all of them never have a word to say when our President, the leader of the free world, expresses his belief in "fairy tales". You would think that if they think it's so foolish to believe that they would be more concerned about Obama's beliefs than they are about the beliefs of other forum members.

Well as I have said I do not care what the past, present or future presidents faith is in. If he wants to believe in the tooth fairy then I have no problem with that whatsoever. Like the old saying goes "whatever floats your boat." Therefore, I cannot answer your question about why some bash one president's faith while zipping it for others.

PBulldog2 wrote:And Neko, I have to question the motives of those who attack others' spiritual beliefs. What do they have to gain by doing this? Why do they even do it? It seems if they were solid in their own beliefs - or lack of - they would not feel the need to attack and demean others. Again, what does a person gain by this sort of behavior? A fleeting sense of superiority? A brief adrenaline tingle from ripping apart another poster? What?

All behavior has meaning, but even trying to explain that type of behavior is beyond me.

I do find it intriguing (and telling) that none of those posters have responded to your question.

I don't know, PB. I mean, I don't feel the need to tell atheists that they are foolish or wrong every time they post some anti-Christian saying or link or whatever. I read threads on here that I don't always comment on. There are several members on here who berate Christians, post nasty little comments about Christians and such. They know who they are. I pretty much ignore most of it. They have a right to believe or not believe. At least we live in a place where every citizen is free to research and learn and choose for himself or herself what they believe. But when I heard Obama say that God has a plan, it caused me to respond. I am sincere about the question I posed. It puzzles me.

Ghost_Rider1 wrote:

Nekochan wrote:

Ghost_Rider1 wrote:

Nekochan wrote:

Ghost_Rider1 wrote:

Nekochan wrote:

bluemoon wrote:

Nekochan wrote:

Lurch wrote:If I was to judge a politician by their religion I couldn't vote at all..
You just have to let some things slide.. Picking between two evils is kinda tricky..

I understand. Makes sense.

But still, some people who were highly critical of Bush's religious beliefs and even called him a fanatic completely give Obama a pass. And today still, Christians are bashed and called all kinds of derogatory things by people who seem to think that Obama is God's gift to the world.

Christians are supposed to be persecuted and called names. It brings them more glory in heaven. They should forgive it, and then call it an opportunity to show how different and Christian they can be. Complaining years later isn't evidence of knowing what the Bible teaches.

What does heaven and forgiveness have to do with some atheists bashing Christians while supporting Obama while ignoring his references to God?

How do you know that it is atheists that are the Bush and Christian bashers? I suspect that it is the various denominations bashing each other. Catholics have been bashing Protestants and vice versa for ages. Pentecostals have been bashing the Baptists for years, but as long as I have claimed atheism I have never heard another atheist bash Christianity. We pretty much leave the Christians to their own devices, but of course there is always that fringe element in every organization.

Well, yes, different groups bash each other. But no, I am talking specifically about liberal atheists, including on this forum, who have called Christians weak minded and foolish, etc for having a belief in God. But then they say nothing when Obama declares that "God has a plan". Just recently, Seaoat had some flooding problems and he mentioned God's plan and he was called foolish or some such thing. But I have never seen a liberal on here call Obama foolish or weak for his proclamations about God.

In all honesty I am not sure who you are taking about. I thought that I was the only person on the forum that has publically proclaimed to be an atheist.

Those who have bashed Christians know who they are. Almost all of them never have a word to say when our President, the leader of the free world, expresses his belief in "fairy tales". You would think that if they think it's so foolish to believe that they would be more concerned about Obama's beliefs than they are about the beliefs of other forum members.

Well as I have said I do not care what the past, present or future presidents faith is in. If he wants to believe in the tooth fairy then I have no problem with that whatsoever. Like the old saying goes "whatever floats your boat." Therefore, I cannot answer your question about why some bash one president's faith while zipping it for others.

Really, I didn't expect an answer from you because I haven't noticed you berating Christian forum members while giving Obama a free pass.

PBulldog2 wrote:

Nekochan wrote:

Bob wrote:

Ghost_Rider1 wrote:I Do you think that your god had a plan to kill 24 people with 7 of those being children?

Come to think of it, I've never heard the loved one of anyone killed in a tornado (or a hurricane or any other disaster) give God credit for that.
It's the strangest thing. Only the survivors seem to want to give him the credit. Go figure.

Good point, Bob.
But have you ever heard a parent who lost a child say that God helped them through it?

OK, I've read the whole thread now. And Neko, you nailed the whole issue with your question above. It's not about what happens - those things over which we have no control - it's how we mange to get through those bad times. That's when faith in a higher power, God, the force, the source or whatever a person believes can bring a person through.

......................................

Bingo PB. Trying to explain Faith to someone who only wants to use your answer to beat you up is a total waste of time and energy. The same with Prayer. I have a good friend who dismisses the argument outright by telling others who wish to argue about it...

".....I say my Prayers and then act like they worked....".

For myself, it's more about a centering mechanism for the Soul, than a laundry list of requests that violate the very premise of even seeking that dialog.

For most of us, knowing and doing the next right thing, following God's will, is amorphous and hard to define. For me, I don't know what God's will is in every situation, but I have a pretty firm grasp on what he/she would NOT want me to do.

This whole exercise has been just another reason to bash someone, and take a swipe at all liberals and Pres. Obama. It wasn't for the atheists as the thread title suggests, it was Against The Atheist, an effort to bait someone into another forum food fight....a small tantrum of pique and selective outrage over inflammatory statements from Sal designed to start a previous food fight.

Wrapping it up in a quest for "an answer" is a false flag from the start.

Another petty idiot's gambit, that produced the exact results being sought.

As I said, it's like hunting in a baited field.

Just a couple of points I want to make:
*I have no problem with Obama expressing his faith. This is not an Obama bashing thread.
*I did not have Sal in mind when I started this thread.

I did not have Sal in mind when I started this thread.

I know who you had in mind......but I doubt there could be comprehension of any discussion of this subject.....without the certainty that folks with faith are fools........rather ironic.

Nekochan wrote:Just a couple of points I want to make:
*I have no problem with Obama expressing his faith. This is not an Obama bashing thread.
*I did not have Sal in mind when I started this thread.

..................................

Uh huh.

If not Sal, the only other atheist I know of is Ghost, so who DID you have in mind when you pluralized atheist...?

I think the point you were trying to make is more indexed to political hypocrisy; expedient lip service.

God's name get's tossed around more than a trailer in a tornado, from the wicked outbursts to the pious utterances of folk seeking to elevate their status. And that fact will never change as long as the vocal evangelical right espouse that this is a "Christian Nation".

The truth is much more ambiguous when we consider that the majority of the Founders were Deists, but that fact always gets pushed aside by the Army of God and it's Christian Soldiers who want to wage war on infidels and un-believers.

Sheesh...does anyone ever wage peace...?

Have a nice day Neko.

2seaoat wrote:I did not have Sal in mind when I started this thread.

I know who you had in mind......but I doubt there could be comprehension of any discussion of this subject.....without the certainty that folks with faith are fools........rather ironic.

..............................

Wow. Somehow, I knew you would know.....but cleverly opt of out making a declarative statement, lest thou be wrong yet again, right...? LOL

How's things at the Oasis of All Known Stuff and Such...?

Bingo.......no need for piling on.........

2seaoat wrote:Bingo.......no need for piling on.........

.................................

More wasted words from the artful dodger.

So who was she trashing...?

Burning down a house to expose a mouse is a bit of over-kill.

I think nekochan has a valid point. There are indeed democrats who make fun of right-wingers because they're christians.
And many of the same ones who make fun of the right-wing christians give obama a pass and don't make fun of him when he tells us he believes the same christian stuff.
It's a double standard.

There is one difference though, neko. I think many of the liberals who do this believe what I do, that obama is what I like to think of as an "armchair christian". I define that as someone who may or may not believe all the hogwash in the bible but calls himself religious for alterior motives (like trying to get votes).
Whereas on the other hand, the right-wingers really do believe that stuff.

Bob, you could be right. But a man (or woman) who would lie about something as important as his personal religious beliefs is not a man I would trust with the business of the country.

Nekochan wrote:Bob, you could be right. But a man (or woman) who would lie about something as important as his personal religious beliefs is not a man I would trust with the business of the country.

I agree. And here's another example...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/oct/14/usa.midterms2006

There is no doubt that both parties go after the groups they think they have the best shot at getting votes from. It's impossible to know who to believe in that article, just like now when people in the Obama admin claim that they know nothing.

I Googled the man and found that he died, at 44, of brain cancer just last month. He did not seem to have ill feelings personally towards Bush, but he was disillusioned in that the Bush admin did not deliver on what he felt it promised.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/07/us/j-david-kuo-44-is-dead-split-from-bush-faith-initiative.html?_r=0

Nekochan wrote:There is no doubt that both parties go after the groups they think they have the best shot at getting votes from. It's impossible to know who to believe in that article, just like now when people in the Obama admin claim that they know nothing.

I can easily see that bunch with their feet propped up on the oval office furniture mocking the evangelicals.
I can see that with anybody in the white house. They don't get to the white house by being christ's little choir boys regardless of what they want the public to believe.

Maybe Bob, but that doesn't mean a President is lying when he professes a belief in God. Of course, they are all trying to get votes. The man in your story, Kuo, did not accuse Bush of lying about his faith.

Nekochan wrote:Maybe Bob, but that doesn't mean a President is lying when he professes a belief in God. Of course, they are all trying to get votes. The man in your story, Kuo, did not accuse Bush of lying about his faith.

I don't believe Bush's presidency had much to do with what Bush believed, neko.
I think he was just a vehicle which had his daddy's name who was used by those surrounding him.

Bob wrote:

Nekochan wrote:Maybe Bob, but that doesn't mean a President is lying when he professes a belief in God. Of course, they are all trying to get votes. The man in your story, Kuo, did not accuse Bush of lying about his faith.

I don't believe Bush's presidency had much to do with who Bush was, neko.
I think he was just a vehicle who was used by those surrounding him.

I don't believe that, but to get back to your original point about Kuo's accusation that some in the Bush Admin mocked Christians...If true, Kuo still did not accuse Bush of lying about his faith. He said that he felt that Bush was a good man. And I will state again the point I made earlier that a man who will lie about his personal religious beliefs is not a man I would trust to handle the business of the country. So if atheists voted for Obama thinking that he's lying about his religion, shouldn't they be very worried about what else he'll lie about?