Why we can't have serious solutions for the mass/spree shootings.

Why we can't have serious solutions for the mass/spree shootings.

One thing I think MOST of us can agree on is that the vast majority of shooters had mental disabilities or were virtually certifiably insane.

With our justifiable privacy laws someone seeking mental health treatment are secure in knowing that is not going to be made available to the general public. Of course, with ObamaCare, all those records will be merged together and made available only to those agencies who NEED the information. The government didn't want to open that can of worms so that solution has been swept under the rug.

What would be the result of making those records more available to authorities? Far fewer people who could have benefited from psychiatric help will seek help.

People with critical problems, may be certain to not seek help or medication.

How does any of that SERIOUSLY help the situation. It can't, it's impossible and just as has been said, people just want something done. This would entail a review of our entire mental health system.

Of course, we could do like we do with voter registration forms and just put a box there to check if you are a legal citizen or on the gun permit, are you mentally ill?

Everyone would answer honestly.

An honest objective look at the issue would not be politically correct.

PkrBum wrote:An honest objective look at the issue would not be politically correct.

There are so many parts to this problem that aren't or haven't been addressed...

We can reduce death and injury from firearms in America. I think we need comprehensive gun safety reform, but certainly look at Automobiles. It used to be since the 1920s that a driver of an automobile would use a key to open their vehicle. Now varying RF products allow owners of cars to unlock their cars by just being in proximity to their vehicle. My xp computer 10 years ago would open without me having to type in my password by simply putting my finger on a pad where it would recognize my fingerprint and open my computer.....a product called digital persona.

Biometric trigger locks, chipped weapons, and dynamic foid cards working in harmony with improved control modules on vehicles are going to significantly lower gun deaths.......and yes ......even a crazy person who is going to plan and harm other people.....are going to have a much more difficult time executing their plan with better safety standards regarding firearms......but we can never prevent a crazy person from killing people with a gun, knife, golf club, or hula hoop......at best we can only hope to reduce those numbers by sound gun safety regulations. As a law abiding citizen and hunter, I have never once complained about the extra regulations required to get a hunting license......yet when we hunt humans the second amendment is now be interpreted in crazyland that firearm safety regulation is unconstitutional....please read the last 15 years of Supreme Court decisions which have actually attacked over reaching regulations or restrictions by government.....they tell you that they have gone too far in DC and Chicago.....but the power to regulate is unanimous on the court.

Gun violence is already in decline... with the exception of specific locations and demographics.

http://bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=2221

Homicide Trends In The United States, 1980-2008

NCJ 236018Presents findings from data on homicides that occurred in the United States from 1980 through 2008. It also includes overall homicide rates for 2009 and 2010. The report contains a series of tables and figures that describe homicide patterns and trends. This patterns and trends release analyzes homicide trends by age, sex, and race, including homicides of children under age 5 and of persons age 65 or older. It examines the relationship between the victim and the offender, particularly in cases of intimate and family homicide. Data include homicides involving multiple victims and offenders, circumstances surrounding the death, justifiable homicides, law enforcement officers killed, homicides cleared, and homicide trends by city size and weapon use. The data are primarily from the FBI's Supplementary Homicide Reports with summary data from the annual report, Crime in the United States, for 2009 and 2010.

In the last decade (since 2000) the homicide rate declined to levels last seen in the mid-1960s.

The reductions are largely a reflection of the babyboom generation getting older. When the bubble in our population was 16-35, gun violence was at its highest as statistically youth gun violence has always driven those numbers. Structural long term significant drops in death rates are obtainable independent of the aging population bubble, and reasonable regulations regarding gun safety can start that realistic process.

You still aren't looking at a definable problem... but are endorsing a sweeping progressive govt solution.

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp#[32]

" The offender and victim were of the same race in more than three-quarters of the killings. And according to Mr. Farrell,they often had something else in common: More than 90 percent of the killers had criminal records;and of those who wound up killed,more than half had them."

Markle wrote:Why we can't have serious solutions for the mass/spree shootings.

One thing I think MOST of us can agree on is that the vast majority of shooters had mental disabilities or were virtually certifiably insane.

With our justifiable privacy laws someone seeking mental health treatment are secure in knowing that is not going to be made available to the general public. Of course, with ObamaCare, all those records will be merged together and made available only to those agencies who NEED the information. The government didn't want to open that can of worms so that solution has been swept under the rug.

What would be the result of making those records more available to authorities? Far fewer people who could have benefited from psychiatric help will seek help.

People with critical problems, may be certain to not seek help or medication.

How does any of that SERIOUSLY help the situation. It can't, it's impossible and just as has been said, people just want something done. This would entail a review of our entire mental health system.

Of course, we could do like we do with voter registration forms and just put a box there to check if you are a legal citizen or on the gun permit, are you mentally ill?

Everyone would answer honestly.

Markle, I agree with your post, particularly the portion I highlighted above.

You are right on the mark here.

You still aren't looking at a definable problem... but are endorsing a sweeping progressive govt solution.


Yes I am. A gun belongs in the hands of those who have registered the weapon, have a valid foid card, and that weapon should not be operated by any other person not authorized to use the same. You do not want somebody operating your car without your authorization, so we take precautions with our vehicles.....we license them, register them, put safety features in them, and put a damn locks on the cars so unauthorized folks cannot just have their way with a 2000lb vehicle. A nine year old kid should be prevented from driving a car and giving his brother a joy ride which ends in tragedy, just as a nine year old kid should be prevented from picking up a gun and shooting his brother. These are very definable problems, and contrary to your idea that big government is dictating all the needed changes, most owners of firearms would jump with joy about an inexpensive biometric trigger guard which would only allow authorized people to use their weapon. The government's role is to facilitate gun safety and promulgate reasonable common sense procedures which can provide for the general welfare of the people it represents.....not prohibit weapons....not ban weapons.....but make society safer from weapons in the hands of criminals and unauthorized people. The goal is not 100% elimination of risk, but significant reduction in gun violence, and to that end small steps with a comprehensive plan can be non intrusive and can work.

2seaoat wrote:You still aren't looking at a definable problem... but are endorsing a sweeping progressive govt solution.


Yes I am. A gun belongs in the hands of those who have registered the weapon, have a valid foid card, and that weapon should not be operated by any other person not authorized to use the same. You do not want somebody operating your car without your authorization, so we take precautions with our vehicles.....we license them, register them, put safety features in them, and put a damn locks on the cars so unauthorized folks cannot just have their way with a 2000lb vehicle. A nine year old kid should be prevented from driving a car and giving his brother a joy ride which ends in tragedy, just as a nine year old kid should be prevented from picking up a gun and shooting his brother. These are very definable problems, and contrary to your idea that big government is dictating all the needed changes, most owners of firearms would jump with joy about an inexpensive biometric trigger guard which would only allow authorized people to use their weapon. The government's role is to facilitate gun safety and promulgate reasonable common sense procedures which can provide for the general welfare of the people it represents.....not prohibit weapons....not ban weapons.....but make society safer from weapons in the hands of criminals and unauthorized people. The goal is not 100% elimination of risk, but significant reduction in gun violence, and to that end small steps with a comprehensive plan can be non intrusive and can work.

And yet with all the precautions/laws with vehicles it does not stop dui's...driving while license suspended....or other vehicular infractions ....but 'sea' you have hit on something that not many are discussing...Responsibility and Self Accountability....Parents/citizens that chose to own firearms should be responsible with those weapons...if you have children be a parent and take necessary precautions to protect...Parenting (or lackthereof) is another area that hasn't entered into this discussion very much...How about the exposure to violence through movies...games...music?...Why are these sacred cows?....When Chris Brown beat his girlfriend there was an outcry for violence and domestic violence (rightfully so)...Or when one of these sickos are found to be influenced by video games etc.,there's barely a wimper...Again these areas are not the entire problem but why have they not entered into the conversation or investigations by the vice president?...Do the folks in Hollywood share some of the responsibility?...Yet they are quick with blame and criticism....We as a society have glorified gangs and violence but there is little discussion about what happens on a daily basis in urban cities on a daily basis...Jesse Jackson called for bringing in the National Guard to patrol Chicago Streets...Again no problem with background checks and waiting periods but registration other than for purcasing is another issue all together.. the information of the buyer is already in the background information....look at recent examples where the media took it upon themselves to publicize where gun owners live including the men and women of law enforcement...when political agendas take over for common sense it's no wonder citizens fear the federal government's inability to protect even the most simple rights of privacy...with the ability to hack into records and a government driven to wanting to ban weapons this is not a good idea....

I see a parallel with it to TSA, markel.
If we start running everybody through a "mental health" filter, it's gonna be like running everybody through the TSA screening.
If we're willing to accept all the abuses that come with doing that, then it might prevent somebody somewhere from doing a gun crime. Just as all the abuses resulting from TSA might have prevented somebody somewhere from doing another hijacking.

I would probably be down with it. Hell it wasn't all that bad going through the TSA screening. Accept for that last one I did. That's when the cocksuckers confiscated my half full bottle of Crown Royal.
But that was my fault. I shoulda drank it on the way to the airport.

http://www.wivb.com/dpp/news/erie/gun-permit-suspended-over-medication

In case you weren't aware of the reactionary law passed this year in New York: NY Safe Act. There is no statement as to how the State received the information, the due process, the hippa laws, the constitutional rights to privacy... look to our future comrades.

2seaoat wrote:You still aren't looking at a definable problem... but are endorsing a sweeping progressive govt solution.


Yes I am. A gun belongs in the hands of those who have registered the weapon, have a valid foid card, and that weapon should not be operated by any other person not authorized to use the same. You do not want somebody operating your car without your authorization, so we take precautions with our vehicles.....we license them, register them, put safety features in them, and put a damn locks on the cars so unauthorized folks cannot just have their way with a 2000lb vehicle. A nine year old kid should be prevented from driving a car and giving his brother a joy ride which ends in tragedy, just as a nine year old kid should be prevented from picking up a gun and shooting his brother. These are very definable problems, and contrary to your idea that big government is dictating all the needed changes, most owners of firearms would jump with joy about an inexpensive biometric trigger guard which would only allow authorized people to use their weapon. The government's role is to facilitate gun safety and promulgate reasonable common sense procedures which can provide for the general welfare of the people it represents.....not prohibit weapons....not ban weapons.....but make society safer from weapons in the hands of criminals and unauthorized people. The goal is not 100% elimination of risk, but significant reduction in gun violence, and to that end small steps with a comprehensive plan can be non intrusive and can work.

Government cannot be the solution to this problem. What you fail to understand is the hundreds of MILLIONS of guns already out there that are not ever going to have the tech you refer to. Then with the tech you refer to it only makes law abiding citizens pay the price in time and effort to have a weapon. The criminal or insane person isn't going through these methods to get a gun.

2seaoat wrote:You still aren't looking at a definable problem... but are endorsing a sweeping progressive govt solution.


Yes I am. A gun belongs in the hands of those who have registered the weapon, have a valid foid card, and that weapon should not be operated by any other person not authorized to use the same. You do not want somebody operating your car without your authorization, so we take precautions with our vehicles.....we license them, register them, put safety features in them, and put a damn locks on the cars so unauthorized folks cannot just have their way with a 2000lb vehicle. A nine year old kid should be prevented from driving a car and giving his brother a joy ride which ends in tragedy, just as a nine year old kid should be prevented from picking up a gun and shooting his brother. These are very definable problems, and contrary to your idea that big government is dictating all the needed changes, most owners of firearms would jump with joy about an inexpensive biometric trigger guard which would only allow authorized people to use their weapon. The government's role is to facilitate gun safety and promulgate reasonable common sense procedures which can provide for the general welfare of the people it represents.....not prohibit weapons....not ban weapons.....but make society safer from weapons in the hands of criminals and unauthorized people. The goal is not 100% elimination of risk, but significant reduction in gun violence, and to that end small steps with a comprehensive plan can be non intrusive and can work.

Driving is not a right. Self protection, and the means to protect oneself is in the Constitution.

2seaoat wrote:We can reduce death and injury from firearms in America. I think we need comprehensive gun safety reform, but certainly look at Automobiles. It used to be since the 1920s that a driver of an automobile would use a key to open their vehicle. Now varying RF products allow owners of cars to unlock their cars by just being in proximity to their vehicle. My xp computer 10 years ago would open without me having to type in my password by simply putting my finger on a pad where it would recognize my fingerprint and open my computer.....a product called digital persona.

Biometric trigger locks, chipped weapons, and dynamic foid cards working in harmony with improved control modules on vehicles are going to significantly lower gun deaths.......and yes ......even a crazy person who is going to plan and harm other people.....are going to have a much more difficult time executing their plan with better safety standards regarding firearms......but we can never prevent a crazy person from killing people with a gun, knife, golf club, or hula hoop......at best we can only hope to reduce those numbers by sound gun safety regulations. As a law abiding citizen and hunter, I have never once complained about the extra regulations required to get a hunting license......yet when we hunt humans the second amendment is now be interpreted in crazyland that firearm safety regulation is unconstitutional....please read the last 15 years of Supreme Court decisions which have actually attacked over reaching regulations or restrictions by government.....they tell you that they have gone too far in DC and Chicago.....but the power to regulate is unanimous on the court.

As I recall the Colorado theater killer walked to the theater and didn't use a car.

*****SMILE*****

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhat-xUQ6dw