Posts : 8802 Join date : 2012-06-23 Location : Pace
What is this shit all about? Don't these knuckle-draggers know that what they are doing offends every African American who sees their display?
I've long thought that local rednecks simply enjoy offending people. Man, you've got to be one insecure, victimized idiot if you seek to offend others.
Please, some local here, explain it all to me ... 'cause I really don't understand your form of suffering in public.
Wordslinger wrote: What is this shit all about? Don't these knuckle-draggers know that what they are doing offends every African American who sees their display?
They need to get over it. The gubbmint shouldn't be officially displaying it except in an historical context .. which I think is fine and appropriate. On top of State buildings and in courtrooms ... nah, they should stop that. But other than that and with regard to individual private citizens ... freedom of speech, baby! It ain't bout you!
It's my history, actually. I had three ancestors in the CW. I know where they joined up, every battle they were in (which were most of the major eastern theater ones, including Gettysburg, and where their units were and what those units did specifically in those battles ... most often right in the thick of things ) I also know where and how two of them died and all about the third paroled at Appomattox who came back from the war all f'd up in the head and had trouble over it the rest of his life. Nowadays they'd call it PTSD ... that's what happens when you see severe battle conditions for three years and have one of your own brothers die in your arms. We have a well-kept family history. My direct ancesto, their brother, was about three years too young to go ... otherwise I probably wouldn't be here today.
I don't fly it myself ... kinda cheesy I think and I don't like to wear things on my sleeve .... . but if others want to, well, whatever.
In the vast majority of instances of people displaying the so-called "Confederate flag .... it's nothing to do with those who choose to identify themselves as "black" .... at all!
You are free to disagree ... I could care less, as I'm sure you could care less about my views on the topic.
Posts : 8802 Join date : 2012-06-23 Location : Pace
EmeraldGhost wrote:
Wordslinger wrote: What is this shit all about? Don't these knuckle-draggers know that what they are doing offends every African American who sees their display?
They need to get over it. The gubbmint shouldn't be officially displaying it except in an historical context .. which I think is fine and appropriate. On top of State buildings and in courtrooms ... nah, they should stop that. But other than that and with regard to individual private citizens ... freedom of speech, baby! It ain't bout you!
It's my history, actually. I had three ancestors in the CW. I know where they joined up, every battle they were in (which were most of the major eastern theater ones, including Gettysburg, and where their units were and what those units did specifically in those battles ... most often right in the thick of things ) I also know where and how two of them died and all about the third paroled at Appomattox who came back from the war all f'd up in the head and had trouble over it the rest of his life. Nowadays they'd call it PTSD ... that's what happens when you see severe battle conditions for three years and have one of your own brothers die in your arms. We have a well-kept family history. My direct ancesto, their brother, was about three years too young to go ... otherwise I probably wouldn't be here today.
I don't fly it myself ... kinda cheesy I think and I don't like to wear things on my sleeve .... . but if others want to, well, whatever.
In the vast majority of instances of people displaying the so-called "Confederate flag .... it's nothing to do with those who choose to identify themselves as "black" .... at all!
You are free to disagree ... I could care less, as I'm sure you could care less about my views on the topic.
I get it that your ancestors fought and some of them died in the Uncivil War. But that was then and this is NOW. How do you justify offending today's African Americans because of your respect for the OLD DEAD SOUTH?
The only reason to display this particular flag of the Confederacy in 2018 is to annoy people whose ancestors were slaves...or just to display ignorance in general, like these people:
I get it that your ancestors fought and some of them died in the Uncivil War. But that was then and this is NOW. How do you justify offending today's African Americans because of your respect for the OLD DEAD SOUTH?
I don't have to "justify" it. They can piss off on that count so far as I'm concerned.
Snowflakes ... trying to make something all-about-"them" that ain't about "them" really. Whoever "they" are .. buncha damn racists if you ask me ... not all that much different than the yahoos in that picture. Don't we have enough crap dividing people in this country without having to incessantly go out & look for new things? Buncha people pretending to be offended just to stir things up. It's attention seeking behavior ... just like the folk's in Flo's pic. (Hey, wait a minute ... I think I mighta dated one of those gals in high school in that pic Flo posted. Or maybe it's her daughter? )
Yeah ... so the civil war's long over. Jim Crow came & went ... as did the civil rights movement. Our country's the better for it all. I'm over it ... maybe everybody else ought to get over it too? And they would except for a buncha race-hustlers who get their living off of it. I'm frankly astounded people buy into their crap. Well, not really ... 'cause I know how people are. Always looking for something to get excited about. Always looking for a "side" to be on.
People want to fly a "Confederate" flag or put a sicker on their truck (and there are a lot of different designs .. that's not the official flag of the Confederate States government you know?) ... so what? I used to have a buddy up in Missouri who had a Nazi flag in his "war room" and a buncha Nazi paraphernalia. Was he a Nazi ... no he was a historian and thrice published author, as well as an adjunct professor at a local university and a general all-around good guy (and a bit eccentric) . He had a flagpole in his front yard and you never knew what flag he might put up on any given day .. usually some kind of British related flag because he was quite the anglophile as well .. but some days you might see some "confederate" flag or other up there too.
How about this Confederate flag ... does it offend you? Do you even know what it represents? Should it be banned? I've seen it in Oklahoma ... more often as a sticker on cars.
I'm post-racial, personally. (great word, doncha think?) I don't do race. Those who choose to continue to play that game,black white brown whatever, can play it without me, thank you very much. It's stupid and I'll tell em so ... just like this whole flag & historical monument issue.
The US was pretty much in line with ending slavery with our contemporary countries in Europe. Importation of slaves was made illegal right after the tourn ot the 1800's. We just did away with it fully a decade or so later than England or France... just in a much more dramatic and destructive way. It's simple minded to think our current issues with racism is unique. If you've traveled you'd know that. Stop being triggered by it as a politically charged issue and it would along way toward easing the division. I don't think that the govt should even know our race or gender.
Floridatexan wrote: "Post-racial", my ass. And Charlie Daniels can go suck an egg.
"A Southern Man don't need him aronund, anyhow"
Charlie Daniels is uber-talented IMO ... I saw him in '78 at the Coliseum in Biloxi.
Nah, really ... I like Neil Young. Canuck Rock! I can dig it. I used to be able to pick/strum out a couple or three of his songs even (not that one .. but not for any particular reason, just never tried to pick it up)
But these two ... yeah, I used to know those.
haven't picked up the geetar in some time ... though it's sitting in the corner right across from me this very moment. I s'pose I oughta dust her off, maybe I will today
The fact is that Confederates were TRAITORS! All their flags and symbols should be banned the same way Nazi symbology was outlawed in Germany after the war. ALL the monuments honoring this rebellious scum should be torn down.
Refusing to honor these traitors publicly is NOT a denial of their very existence, rather it is a strong statement that we, as a country, refuse to honor those people who would betray the principles of democracy, to defend the indefensible. There is no statue of Benedict Arnold in the U.S. Capitol. There are no Air Force bases named for Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. There are no public schools named for Alger Hiss. These people sought to harm their country, and as such do not deserve public recognition. Neither do Confederate traitors.
One thing that amazes me is that anyone would want to honor Robert E. Lee. Not only was he a traitor to his nation, he was a LOSER. Twice he tried and failed to invade the North, first in 1862 at Antietam and then in '63 at Gettysburg. He almost single-handedly brought down the Confederacy.
He was a shitty General and a despicable traitor. He should have been hung, but it doesn't surprise me that the ignorant, racist hillbillies that populate the American South identify with him.
Deus X wrote:The fact is that Confederates were TRAITORS! .... blah blah blah.
Yawn.
You should read/absorb a little history, 'Deucie' ... the legal/constitutional concept of State secession was not a universally settled legal/Constitutional concept till well after the "Civil War" was over. (SCOTUS Texas v White 1869) Secession had been a debated topic among legal scholars for decades prior .. and not always relative to the slavery question of the times. The prohibition on States seceding was not a settled concept as it is today. In fact, Virginia, New York, and Rhode Island, three of the thirteen original colonies, explicitly retained the right to secede when they ratified the Constitution.
For example:
.... The question fairly stated is, Has the Constitution delegated to Congress the power to coerce a State into submission which is attempting to withdraw or has actually withdrawn from the Confederacy? If answered in the affirmative, it must be on the principle that the power has been conferred upon Congress to declare and to make war against a State. After much serious reflection I have arrived at the conclusion that no such power has been delegated to Congress or to any other department of the Federal Government. It is manifest upon an inspection of the Constitution that this is not among the specific and enumerated powers granted to Congress, and it is equally apparent that its exercise is not "necessary and proper for carrying into execution" any one of these powers. So far from this power having been delegated to Congress, it was expressly refused by the Convention which framed the Constitution.
It appears from the proceedings of that body that on the 31st May, 1787, the clause "authorizing an exertion of the force of the whole against a delinquent State" came up for consideration. Mr. Madison opposed it in a brief but powerful speech, from which I shall extract but a single sentence. He observed:
The use of force against a State would look more like a declaration of war than an infliction of punishment, and would probably be considered by the party attacked as a dissolution of all previous compacts by which it might be bound.
Upon his motion the clause was unanimously postponed, and was never, I believe, again presented. Soon afterwards, on the 8th June, 1787, when incidentally adverting to the subject, he said: "Any government for the United States formed on the supposed practicability of using force against the unconstitutional proceedings of the States would prove as visionary and fallacious as the government of Congress," evidently meaning the then existing Congress of the old Confederation.
Without descending to particulars, it may be safely asserted that the power to make war against a State is at variance with the whole spirit and intent of the Constitution. ....
... James Buchannan - 4th Annual Message to Congress
That's just one example of the secession debate ... and I chose to use that particular one because it is very contemporary to the time of the outbreak of the Civil War. I could look up and give you a dozen others going all the way back to the founding of this government. I didn't post that to "justify" the legality of secession, the morality of slavery, the Confederacy, or anything else ... just to illustrate the legal thinking and debates of the time .... and that it was far from a settled legal concept (secession, that is)
I will say this ... you can't judge people of 150 years ago as to whether they were good or bad, whether what they did was legal or illegal, or their motives even, by the laws and cultural standards and mores of today.
So ... "traitors"? Nah. That's a bit of a reach.
(As to Lee .... I'm not going to attempt to educate you here on all the ins-and-outs of the civil war and civil war politics. Do your own homework. Nor would I try & convince you it wasn't really about slavery like some of the idjits in the pic 'Flo' posted might. But of course it was. I'll save my debate/discussion of various Generals and their tactics, strategies, battles,etc for those who actually know what they are talking about .. not those who just read about it yesterday in some newspaper op-ed.)
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Deus X wrote:Article III, Section 3 of the U.S. Constitution:
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.
The defense rests, your honor.
Ah ... yeah. Twas Lincoln levied war against the seceded States who had formed themselves into a confederacy, 'Deucie' ... not the other way around.
But I can see you're not truly interested in rational discussion of actual facts/history on this topic, rather you are just trying to promote a contemporary socopolitical agenda by deeming every soldier who fought for the southern confederacy a "traitor" .. so I'm really not going to waste any more of my time with you on it.
Anyways ... see my previous post.
Last edited by EmeraldGhost on 6/18/2018, 7:52 am; edited 1 time in total
Posts : 8802 Join date : 2012-06-23 Location : Pace
Whether the South seceded to maintain the right of owning slaves or not isn't the issue here.
Fact: Today's use of Confederate symbols, monuments, and flags -- particularly on governmental institutions, or on private cars, homes, clothing, etc. is offensive to African-Americans and other Americans who find the concept of slavery, and any form of its celebration to be despicable.
Emerald: Don't give us your family history, or your perspective of what the Civil War was really about. We're not interested. Defend the act of anyone using Civil War regalia, symbols, flags, etc. -- all of which express sympathy or personal respect for the Confederacy -- despite the knowledge that such display is patently offensive to African-Americans and others.
I used to wear rebel flag tee shirts back in high school. I went to a private school so it never even occurred to me that there was any racial component to it... I was blissfully ignorant. I didn't put any thought into it at all - I just figured it was a cool-looking symbol of rebellion and wasn't thinking about the Civil War or any of it. And I also believed some stupid shit about the Civil War (or "war of Northern aggression" as we were always told) that I've long since learned was total bullshit. I don't usually go with the stupid-ass grain of Southern life when it comes to most things, but regarding that flag, I did.
Then I started noticing Nazi skinheads waving the damn thing. After that, those tee-shirts went in the rag pile. It was like the swastika -- originally, the swastika was a Buddhist sun-sign and meant something good, but after the Nazis flipped it it wasn't worth running around wearing it and trying to explain to people what you think it means. Basically, it just doesn't mean that anymore. And, same with the flag. Once Nazis start waving it, fuck it, I ain't about that, I'm about seeing Nazis dead.
And, even if that weren't the case, I'm not selfish enough to want to keep doing something that I know offends my black friends and neighbors, who haven't done anything to deserve having something mean rubbed in their face. My respect for them outweighs any respect for a participation-trophy flag representing a bunch of dead men. Yeah, I had ancestors who fought in that war, but, they were on the wrong side. I don't know what their reasoning was, individually, but, it doesn't matter -- they don't need their flag waved anymore, that shit's over. Or, at least, it should be.
Mississippi still keeps that trash in its state flag... for now. But the clock's running out on that... it's just being hung onto long enough so the few "heritage nuts" can feel like they didn't completely get their asses kicked again. But it'll go away and be replaced by something that we can all be proud of. Most of what's good about Mississippi comes from black folks -- the blues, rock and roll, our cooking. 'Bout time we had a flag that'd represent their contributions better, and quit picking at scabs that might heal if you just let them. I know the South has a lot of "pride" (why that is, I often don't know, after knowing so many of the "proud" ones who honestly ain't worth shit) but this intense nostalgia for a time when we were really really fucking wrong is pretty bewildering.
He was a shitty General and a despicable traitor. He should have been hung, but it doesn't surprise me that the ignorant, racist hillbillies that populate the American South identify with him.
In the end true. The worst condemnation in history is that both Davis and Lee condoned and allowed black union prisoners once surrendered to be tortured and murdered. You can talk all the BS you want but my family also served in the civil war, and in my entire life, I never saw a confederate flag in any household in my Alabama family. Now they were racists. They did NOT believe in equal rights, but this idea of the confederate flag being displayed to honor our relatives.....nonsense.....just more moral bankruptcy. A black man having equal rights is exactly why the backlash put Trump in the white house, and that hate and pain may be invisible to those who claim heritage and race neutrality, but in the end......the hero of the south Robert E. Lee who was in full line command of his troops murdered surrendering soldiers of the United States because of their race. May Robert E. Lee burn in hell for the death and carnage he caused this nation, and may Pickett's charge remind all that in the end he was a vile racist.
Posts : 8802 Join date : 2012-06-23 Location : Pace
2seaoat wrote:He was a shitty General and a despicable traitor. He should have been hung, but it doesn't surprise me that the ignorant, racist hillbillies that populate the American South identify with him.
In the end true. The worst condemnation in history is that both Davis and Lee condoned and allowed black union prisoners once surrendered to be tortured and murdered. You can talk all the BS you want but my family also served in the civil war, and in my entire life, I never saw a confederate flag in any household in my Alabama family. Now they were racists. They did NOT believe in equal rights, but this idea of the confederate flag being displayed to honor our relatives.....nonsense.....just more moral bankruptcy. A black man having equal rights is exactly why the backlash put Trump in the white house, and that hate and pain may be invisible to those who claim heritage and race neutrality, but in the end......the hero of the south Robert E. Lee who was in full line command of his troops murdered surrendering soldiers of the United States because of their race. May Robert E. Lee burn in hell for the death and carnage he caused this nation, and may Pickett's charge remind all that in the end he was a vile racist.
Ya see. This is the kind of divisive nonsense that got Trump elected. If the left wants to continue down this road of pissing on people like me and my personal heritage/history and white-bread background .. hell, I might just vote for the man myself in 2020, as ridiculous and "deplorable" as I might think him to be. Why the hell not? .... it's not like the Democrats are likely to nominate anyone who doesn't look down upon and continually demonize people like me. I fully expect they may very well (stupidly) nominate somebody from the far looney-left. They do that and you can probably say "hello" to 4 more years of the orange ignoramus .... all he'll have to do is not crash the economy and not otherwise f' up too bad in the next 18 months & it'll be a cinch for him. This whole "Russia" thing .. people will be weary of it in a couple of years. Heck, I expect a lot of 'em are weary of it now & have just checked-out so far as really following the weekly ins-and-outs of it. It's too easy to forget that people like we on a forum like this follow the intricacies of politics/policy a lot more closely than your average American. That's just the way of things ... "Americans have a short attentions span" as someone? once said And as someone on here likes to say ... that's "Reality."
And I don't even display that particular flag (as I stated previously in this thread) Never have (except in various military flags in a historical context at Civil War re-enactments ... yeah, I did that, for about 10 years .... portrayed North & South alike. I have a keen interest in history and that particular history has some personal relevance to me. It was a Missouri outfit, so we could easily play both sides as needed by the organizers of the event to reflect proper percentages of N vs S in accordance with the historical numbers of the actual battle ... and some members of my company also had family backgrounds in the war North & South variously.)
So a few idjits wanna use it as a symbol of ... whatever idiot thing they got going on in their small heads. That' not what it represents to me .. and really doesn't mean anything objectively with regard to that flag itself. Truthfully ... I'm not really all that interested in the flag issue ... it's the wholesale demonization of people that pisses me off. I'm a little more passionate about the tearing down of historical monuments thing than I am the "flag" issue.
I note none of ya'll cared to take up my discussion of the "traitors" label vis-a-vis secession. Wassamatta? ... can't honestly refute it?
I expect I've forgotten more about Civil War history, politics, and 18th/19th century American culture .... and it's relevance to who/what we are as a country today than any of you all ever knew. Apparently from some of the ignorant comments I've seen on here. Well, I'll tell ya, I've got personal history on both sides of the "Civil War" fence (not in as much detail as my ancestors who fought for the north as the south, that side just didn't keep the history) .... but it means something to me. I'm sorry if you don't know or don't care about your personal heritage ... Mine might not mean anything to you .... but disrespect me about it & I'll give ya an earful.
My mother's family is from Michigan, actually ... I'm kind of a "naturalized/half" Southerner ... I was born in Detroit & lived my first seven years there. Michigan is a part of my self- identity/family-history too. Going up there this fall to my niece's wedding and visit my aunt & cousins in fact. Up past Traverse City ... Clear Lake area to be more precise.. My family, both sides, were part of that huge crowd of "white folk" that beat feet out of Detroit area in the late '60's. You think there was/is no racism toward blacks in the north .... I can assure you otherwise, going waaaay back .. it's there aplenty still. My Dad took us back South ... my Mom's side went further north to get away. And we're all better for it now. I have memories of coming home from my integrated school in Mississippi, (granted, a lot of white people didn't like it much, but by and large they just accepted it ... we had no riots/protests around my school or any others in the area) , and watching the school busing riots on Tee-vee ... in Boston & places elsewhere north of the Mason-Dixon line.
I don't piss on anybody else's history/background/culture/identity ... be it African-American, Irish, Italian, Mexican, Native American, whatever (we lived very close to a Choctaw Rez in Mississipi, a lot of 'em went to my school, I've been to their festivals, been to Nanih Waiya, had Choctaw friens ) ... I respect other folk's heritage and expect the same ... and have no probe celebrating it right along with them (except Kwanza, of course ... now I really don't get that one? But hey, whatever floats your boat.) I love me some Cinco de Mayo parties. Half of my in-laws out in Texas are 50% hispanic. My Germany born German/Ukrainian wife was raised by a Hispanic stepfather in El Paso after they moved back from Germany where she lived her first 12 years. We have used to have a big-time at Octoberfest when we lived closer too.
So, yeah .. it's "personal" to me. I know my family history/heritage all the way back to my Dad's Palatine ancestor who came over in the 1730's to Baltimore and later New York. I know what ship they came over on even and the circumstances of that .. as well as my Mom's family who were later 1800's German immigrants to the midwest. I'm sorry if you don't know yours and/or don't care about mine, but piss on me and mine with words like "traitors" (see my previous post calling out that nonsense) & you can just f' off so far as I'm concerned.
To bring us back to politics though (this is a "political" forum, is it not?) .... Wanna know who to blame for Trump being President? .... people with high-n-mighty ignorant attitudes like some of ya'll. Democrats could easily have the White House and the Congress right now if they'd drop their polarizing culture-war bullsh*t ... they're as guilty of it as many on the right. As someone else on here likes to say ... "Truth"
Up to now in this thread, I tried to have a reasonable/rational discussion with ya'll on this topic. I see there's no room for that in your small mean minds. So .... Suck on it!
Last edited by EmeraldGhost on 6/18/2018, 9:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
Who's the SNOWFLAKE now? "Oh, boo-hoo-hoo, you guys are picking on me!"
This is a politics forum on the internet, Sparky, not the Oxford Union debating society. Whadya expect, civility? Grow up.
As far as "Twas Lincoln levied war against the seceded States", you're forgetting that it was South Carolina who fired the first shots at Ft. Sumter and started the whole thing. And even before that, the seceded states were occupying and appropriating Federal property without compensation which was essentially theft from the rest of the citizens of the republic.
What are you here for? Just to yell at & insult people? Toss out sound-bites you read in an op-ed somewhere? What's the point of that? Where's the value?
But I'll tell ya what, I'm gonna call ya out if you get nasty & personal ... and that's what I did. No snowflaking here. I'll stand my ground on the internet or in person.
Deus X wrote: As far as "Twas Lincoln levied war against the seceded States", you're forgetting that it was South Carolina who fired the first shots at Ft. Sumter and started the whole thing. And even before that, the seceded states were occupying and appropriating Federal property without compensation which was essentially theft from the rest of the citizens of the republic.]
Well, believe it or not we could actually have a really good discussion about that vis-a-vis what actually occurred in that particular event; contemporary to the times perceptions; and the label of "traitors" ..... and believe it or not we might find some common ground here and there in that discussion. Normally I would welcome it .... but from what I've seen thus far in this thread I don't think your're really up to it. Go read some books. Don't waste my time lightweight.
btw ... you're first gonna have to establish secession was universally accepted as unconstitutional/illegal at the time before we go down that road. You brought it up .. not me. One man's traitor is another man's freedom fighter. One man's rebellion is another man's war for independence. Not defending the Confederacy, slavery, or anything like that, so don't try & paint me with that broad brush. Just talking about people's perceptions at that time in history. There was much disagreement about that at the time North and South ... amongst very learned men even.
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Floridatexan wrote: Don't like it here? Secede. I don't like you.
Awww, I'm heartbroken, 'Flo' ... and I thought we were such good friends. Remember that night in Montana?
Anyways ... when did I ever say/indicate I "don't like it here" ? Are you perhaps projecting that you don't like me here? Does it disturb some internal psychological desire you might have to live in an echo-chamber where you can feel all warm and fuzzy and everybody agrees with everybody on everything so nobody has to think? Just speculating. I don't really know you that well, perhaps I'm wrong on that count ... you tell me?
Last edited by EmeraldGhost on 6/18/2018, 11:49 pm; edited 3 times in total
Posts : 8802 Join date : 2012-06-23 Location : Pace
EmeraldGhost wrote:Ya see. This is the kind of divisive nonsense that got Trump elected. If the left wants to continue down this road of pissing on people like me and my personal heritage/history and white-bread background .. hell, I might just vote for the man myself in 2020, as ridiculous and "deplorable" as I might think him to be. Why the hell not? .... it's not like the Democrats are likely to nominate anyone who doesn't look down upon and continually demonize people like me. I fully expect they may very well (stupidly) nominate somebody from the far looney-left. They do that and you can probably say "hello" to 4 more years of the orange ignoramus .... all he'll have to do is not crash the economy and not otherwise f' up too bad in the next 18 months & it'll be a cinch for him. This whole "Russia" thing .. people will be weary of it in a couple of years. Heck, I expect a lot of 'em are weary of it now & have just checked-out so far as really following the weekly ins-and-outs of it. It's too easy to forget that people like we on a forum like this follow the intricacies of politics/policy a lot more closely than your average American. That's just the way of things ... "Americans have a short attentions span" as someone? once said And as someone on here likes to say ... that's "Reality."
And I don't even display that particular flag (as I stated previously in this thread) Never have (except in various military flags in a historical context at Civil War re-enactments ... yeah, I did that, for about 10 years .... portrayed North & South alike. I have a keen interest in history and that particular history has some personal relevance to me. It was a Missouri outfit, so we could easily play both sides as needed by the organizers of the event to reflect proper percentages of N vs S in accordance with the historical numbers of the actual battle ... and some members of my company also had family backgrounds in the war North & South variously.)
So a few idjits wanna use it as a symbol of ... whatever idiot thing they got going on in their small heads. That' not what it represents to me .. and really doesn't mean anything objectively with regard to that flag itself. Truthfully ... I'm not really all that interested in the flag issue ... it's the wholesale demonization of people that pisses me off. I'm a little more passionate about the tearing down of historical monuments thing than I am the "flag" issue.
I note none of ya'll cared to take up my discussion of the "traitors" label vis-a-vis secession. Wassamatta? ... can't honestly refute it?
I expect I've forgotten more about Civil War history, politics, and 18th/19th century American culture .... and it's relevance to who/what we are as a country today than any of you all ever knew. Apparently from some of the ignorant comments I've seen on here. Well, I'll tell ya, I've got personal history on both sides of the "Civil War" fence (not in as much detail as my ancestors who fought for the north as the south, that side just didn't keep the history) .... but it means something to me. I'm sorry if you don't know or don't care about your personal heritage ... Mine might not mean anything to you .... but disrespect me about it & I'll give ya an earful.
My mother's family is from Michigan, actually ... I'm kind of a "naturalized/half" Southerner ... I was born in Detroit & lived my first seven years there. Michigan is a part of my self- identity/family-history too. Going up there this fall to my niece's wedding and visit my aunt & cousins in fact. Up past Traverse City ... Clear Lake area to be more precise.. My family, both sides, were part of that huge crowd of "white folk" that beat feet out of Detroit area in the late '60's. You think there was/is no racism toward blacks in the north .... I can assure you otherwise, going waaaay back .. it's there aplenty still. My Dad took us back South ... my Mom's side went further north to get away. And we're all better for it now. I have memories of coming home from my integrated school in Mississippi, (granted, a lot of white people didn't like it much, but by and large they just accepted it ... we had no riots/protests around my school or any others in the area) , and watching the school busing riots on Tee-vee ... in Boston & places elsewhere north of the Mason-Dixon line.
I don't piss on anybody else's history/background/culture/identity ... be it African-American, Irish, Italian, Mexican, Native American, whatever (we lived very close to a Choctaw Rez in Mississipi, a lot of 'em went to my school, I've been to their festivals, been to Nanih Waiya, had Choctaw friens ) ... I respect other folk's heritage and expect the same ... and have no probe celebrating it right along with them (except Kwanza, of course ... now I really don't get that one? But hey, whatever floats your boat.) I love me some Cinco de Mayo parties. Half of my in-laws out in Texas are 50% hispanic. My Germany born German/Ukrainian wife was raised by a Hispanic stepfather in El Paso after they moved back from Germany where she lived her first 12 years. We have used to have a big-time at Octoberfest when we lived closer too.
So, yeah .. it's "personal" to me. I know my family history/heritage all the way back to my Dad's Palatine ancestor who came over in the 1730's to Baltimore and later New York. I know what ship they came over on even and the circumstances of that .. as well as my Mom's family who were later 1800's German immigrants to the midwest. I'm sorry if you don't know yours and/or don't care about mine, but piss on me and mine with words like "traitors" (see my previous post calling out that nonsense) & you can just f' off so far as I'm concerned.
To bring us back to politics though (this is a "political" forum, is it not?) .... Wanna know who to blame for Trump being President? .... people with high-n-mighty ignorant attitudes like some of ya'll. Democrats could easily have the White House and the Congress right now if they'd drop their polarizing culture-war bullsh*t ... they're as guilty of it as many on the right. As someone else on here likes to say ... "Truth"
Up to now in this thread, I tried to have a reasonable/rational discussion with ya'll on this topic. I see there's no room for that in your small mean minds. So .... Suck on it!
Whoopie. Who gives a shit about your assumed knowledge of the Civil War? Once again, that isn't the issue -- that was then and this is now. How in fuck do you defend the act of using Confederate symbolism today when you very well know it offends African Americans and others? That's a reasonable question you've carefully avoided answering. Why?
Wordslinger wrote: Whoopie. Who gives a shit about your assumed knowledge of the Civil War? Once again, that isn't the issue -- that was then and this is now. How in fuck do you defend the act of using Confederate symbolism today when you very well know it offends African Americans and others? That's a reasonable question you've carefully avoided answering. Why?
I did too. If you will recall, I said they need to get over it.
It's mostly just a bunch of faux outrage.
Actually, I'm really not all that passionate about the flag issue personally. (see my first post in the thread on that) The destruction of historical monuments I have a little bit stronger feelings about .. but that's not the direct topic here. What I've been discussing mostly in this thread after m first post ... and take issue with .... was the characterization of some of my ancestors as "traitors" and the idea that the secession of the southern States was "treason." Was it wrong? Yes. Was it "treason" ... not when considered in historical context.
As to the original flag issue .... if you go back to my original post on the topic you'll see I said:
I don't fly it myself ... kinda cheesy I think and I don't like to wear things on my sleeve .... . but if others want to, well, whatever.
In the vast majority of instances of people displaying the so-called "Confederate flag .... it's nothing to do with those who choose to identify themselves as "black" .... at all!
There are white supremacists who fly and march with the Christian flag or flags with Christian symbolism as well. It's quite common among that crowd. Shall we ban all flags with Christian symbolism on them. Well, no .. that'd be ridiculous. Should the government fly Christian flags? No .. that's inappropriate. It means different things to different people. Not a direct perfect analogy, I know .... but perhaps you get my drift if you are reading with an open mind.
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(great word, doncha think?) I don't do race. Those who choose to continue to play that game,black white brown whatever, can play it without me, thank you very much. It's stupid and I'll tell em so ... just like this whole flag & historical monument issue.
