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Pensacola Discussion Forum » Politics » We could be celebrating the transition of Bernie Sanders... but we blew it.

We could be celebrating the transition of Bernie Sanders... but we blew it.

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Wordslinger

Wordslinger

When Bernie says he's out to restore the middle class, he means it. When the Pussy Grabber says it, you know better. Reality.


2seaoat



Bernie would have beat Donald Trump, but would have had a massive failure governing. It is obvious that the senate, house, and courts would have battled him on every front. FDR had some help. Bernie would have been the lone ranger. The reality sadly is that Donald Trump has a real chance to make some positive changes in government, in entitlement reform, reduction of inefficiency in government, and real teeth in enforcing fair trade. He will get a honeymoon for about six months where he could accomplish positive things for America where Bernie could not have accomplished a thing. The caveat is that there is an equal chance that President elect Trump could cause irreparable damage to America.......we will see.

othershoe1030

othershoe1030

2seaoat wrote:Bernie would have beat Donald Trump, but would have had a massive failure governing.  It is obvious that the senate, house, and courts would have battled him on every front.  FDR had some help.  Bernie would have been the lone ranger.   The reality sadly is that Donald Trump has a real chance to make some positive changes in government, in entitlement reform, reduction of inefficiency in government, and real teeth in enforcing fair trade.  He will get a honeymoon for about six months where he could accomplish positive things for America where Bernie could not have accomplished a thing.  The caveat is that there is an equal chance that President elect Trump could cause irreparable damage to America.......we will see.

Trump is definitely a wildcard. It is somewhat comforting (for some reason) to think that maybe Bernie as President would not have gone all that well, sad to say you are probably right on that.

I don't know about a honeymoon for The Donald though. He is not in terribly good standing with McConnell or Paul Ryan. Without them he is, as Obama has discovered, not in a position to make much happen. McConnell commented on Trump's infrastructure plans that those were not at the top of his "to do" list. Good ideas are one thing but increasing the debt etc. is another. Fortunately Trump is not king.

Sal

Sal

Bernie had the correct message, but he was a badly flawed messenger and wouldn't have beaten Trump.

You have to remember who swung the election - white, Rust Belt voters.

Bernie is a Jewish, socialist, atheist who openly proclaimed he was going to raise taxes on EVERYONE.

If you think the blockheads would turn out for that, you're nutz.

Plus, Trump would've savaged him, and he would've been left looking like a doddering old coot.

othershoe1030

othershoe1030

Sal wrote:Bernie had the correct message, but he was a badly flawed messenger and wouldn't have beaten Trump.

You have to remember who swung the election - white, Rust Belt voters.

Bernie is a Jewish, socialist, atheist who openly proclaimed he was going to raise taxes on EVERYONE.

If you think the blockheads would turn out for that, you're nutz.

Plus, Trump would've savaged him, and he would've been left looking like a doddering old coot.

I think there were a lot of voters who liked Bernie and given the final choices voted for Trump either because they were sick of how things were going in DC or didn't like Hillary or both. Bernie and Trump both appealed to the voter who was looking for change.

I have to say I don't think Bernie ever said he was going to raise taxes on EVERYONE just on those in the upper tax brackets who were receiving most of the wealth from the recovery while the middle class and working class were stagnant. His message was clear, the economy was not working for everyone, just for the top 1%.

Because of the way the tax code has worked recently, wealth has been trickling upward. It's coming out of the working and middle class people and going to the top 1%.

Sal

Sal

othershoe1030 wrote:I think there were a lot of voters who liked Bernie and given the final choices voted for Trump either because they were sick of how things were going in DC or didn't like Hillary or both. Bernie and Trump both appealed to the voter who was looking for change.

I have to say I don't think Bernie ever said he was going to raise taxes on EVERYONE just on those in the upper tax brackets who were receiving most of the wealth from the recovery while the middle class and working class were stagnant. His message was clear, the economy was not working for everyone, just for the top 1%.

Because of the way the tax code has worked recently, wealth has been trickling upward. It's coming out of the working and middle class people and going to the top 1%.

Like I said, Sanders' message resonates with me, but I remain unconvinced that he was the right candidate to sell it.

Populism works a little differently on the right than on the left.

Rightwing populism attacks the DC establishment and scapegoats minorities and the poor.

Leftwing populism attacks Wall Street and the corporatists, and seeks to build a unified front of working-class whites with their minority brethren, who share the same economic dire straights.

Unfortunately, we've seen that is a bridge too far for a critical mass of working-class white people, who are unwilling to join that coalition.

At least, not yet.

Regarding taxes, I believe Sanders did say that taxes would go up for most everyone, including modestly for the middle class.

His pitch was, taxes will go up, but you'll get a ton in return.

Again, that resonates with me, but it certainly is not going to sell with the teatards in the Rust Belt.

The coalition that's required to bring about the changes we need is a tough one to build, and I remain unconvinced Sanders could've pulled it off.

Could be that the disaster that will be the Trump presidency is the catalyst prescribed to finally wake people up.

Guest


Guest

"His pitch was, taxes will go up, but you'll get a ton in return."

Laughable. See: reality. The govt continually wastes and mishandles money like a sieve holds water.

There's NO reason that the govt can't run on receipts... a couple of TRILLION at most.

othershoe1030

othershoe1030

Sal wrote:
othershoe1030 wrote:I think there were a lot of voters who liked Bernie and given the final choices voted for Trump either because they were sick of how things were going in DC or didn't like Hillary or both. Bernie and Trump both appealed to the voter who was looking for change.

I have to say I don't think Bernie ever said he was going to raise taxes on EVERYONE just on those in the upper tax brackets who were receiving most of the wealth from the recovery while the middle class and working class were stagnant. His message was clear, the economy was not working for everyone, just for the top 1%.

Because of the way the tax code has worked recently, wealth has been trickling upward. It's coming out of the working and middle class people and going to the top 1%.

Like I said, Sanders' message resonates with me, but I remain unconvinced that he was the right candidate to sell it.

Populism works a little differently on the right than on the left.

Rightwing populism attacks the DC establishment and scapegoats minorities and the poor.

Leftwing populism attacks Wall Street and the corporatists, and seeks to build a unified front of working-class whites with their minority brethren, who share the same economic dire straights.

Unfortunately, we've seen that is a bridge too far for a critical mass of working-class white people, who are unwilling to join that coalition.

At least, not yet.

Regarding taxes, I believe Sanders did say that taxes would go up for most everyone, including modestly for the middle class.

His pitch was, taxes will go up, but you'll get a ton in return.

Again, that resonates with me, but it certainly is not going to sell with the teatards in the Rust Belt.

The coalition that's required to bring about the changes we need is a tough one to build, and I remain unconvinced Sanders could've pulled it off.

Could be that the disaster that will be the Trump presidency is the catalyst prescribed to finally wake people up.

Good analysis of the version of populism from the right and the left. Seeing as how I of course agree with the position you outline for the left's version of populism it is a stretch to call the Right's version populism at all.

I mean, how can you exclude minorities and the poor and still call it a populist movement? No wonder it makes me crazy. Sounds more like elitism to me. By attacking Washington they end up trying to get rid of regulations (they're really better called "protections"), which leaves people with money and power in the driver's seat.

Sal

Sal

othershoe1030 wrote:
I mean, how can you exclude minorities and the poor and still call it a populist movement? No wonder it makes me crazy. Sounds more like elitism to me.

Or, just racism.

Sal

Sal

Could Bernie Sanders have beaten Donald Trump? I think there's almost no chance of that, but since the topic keeps coming up, I feel like I ought to explain why. I know this won't persuade anyone, but the reason is simple: he's just too liberal.

Here's a chart of every Democratic presidential candidate in the postwar era—plus Bernie Sanders. It shows them from least liberal to most liberal. I used NOMINATE to gauge how liberals senators were; this paper to fill in the governors; and a bit of personal judgment to shift a few candidates around. I'm not pretending I got this perfect, but I think it's in the ballpark. Feel free to move folks around if you like.

We could be celebrating the transition of Bernie Sanders... but we blew it. Captur30

Very roughly, the scores show how the candidates compare to all of Congress: LBJ was more liberal than two-thirds of Congress, while Bernie Sanders is more liberal than 99 percent of Congress. Winning candidates are in red.

No Democratic candidate with a score below 15 has ever won the presidency. Bernie Sanders, needless to say, is way below 15. There's not a snowball's chance that he could have won the presidency.

Like I said, I don't expect this to persuade anyone. You can always make up a dozen reasons why this time would have been different. But it wouldn't have been. In the end, Donald Trump was treated like an ordinary Republican. Hillary Clinton, after being forced a bit to the left during the primaries, was treated like an ordinary Democrat who was right on the bubble of being too liberal for the country. Both candidates had plenty of personal flaws that they used against each other, but Sanders did too. They were just different than Clinton's. Republicans would have twisted him up like a wet rag and tossed him down the drain.

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/12/bernie-sanders-would-have-lost-election-landslide

Guest


Guest

Sal wrote:Bernie had the correct message, but he was a badly flawed messenger and wouldn't have beaten Trump.

You have to remember who swung the election - white, Rust Belt voters.

Bernie is a Jewish, socialist, atheist who openly proclaimed he was going to raise taxes on EVERYONE.

If you think the blockheads would turn out for that, you're nutz.

Plus, Trump would've savaged him, and he would've been left looking like a doddering old coot.

His message of free crap would have won votes. It would have never been implemented given the fact we are 20 trillion in debt. We have no credit left to borrow for Comrade Free Crap. One term and gone if he won.

Wordslinger

Wordslinger

Tellthetruth wrote:
Sal wrote:Bernie had the correct message, but he was a badly flawed messenger and wouldn't have beaten Trump.

You have to remember who swung the election - white, Rust Belt voters.

Bernie is a Jewish, socialist, atheist who openly proclaimed he was going to raise taxes on EVERYONE.

If you think the blockheads would turn out for that, you're nutz.

Plus, Trump would've savaged him, and he would've been left looking like a doddering old coot.

His message of free crap would have won votes. It would have never been implemented given the fact we are 20 trillion in debt. We have no credit left to borrow for Comrade Free Crap. One term and gone if he won.

Your favorite, the Pussy Grabber announced yesterday at one of his rallies that he is going budget a Trillion dollars for infrastructure repair.
And he's also promising tax cuts for all ... Does this clown still have your full support? LOL!

Guest


Guest

IF he plans on propping up the economy by running deficits then he's no smarter than Obama/bush.

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