Pensacola Discussion Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

This is a forum based out of Pensacola Florida.


You are not connected. Please login or register

People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy

+5
knothead
Floridatexan
2seaoat
TEOTWAWKI
EmeraldGhost
9 posters

Go to page : 1, 2  Next

Go down  Message [Page 1 of 2]

EmeraldGhost

EmeraldGhost

People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish, Scientists Say

The democratic process relies on the assumption that citizens (the majority of them, at least) can recognize the best political candidate, or best policy idea, when they see it. But a growing body of research has revealed an unfortunate aspect of the human psyche that would seem to disprove this notion, and imply instead that democratic elections produce mediocre leadership and policies.

The research, led by David Dunning, a psychologist at Cornell University, shows that incompetent people are inherently unable to judge the competence of other people, or the quality of those people's ideas. For example, if people lack expertise on tax reform, it is very difficult for them to identify the candidates who are actual experts. They simply lack the mental tools needed to make meaningful judgments.

As a result, no amount of information or facts about political candidates can override the inherent inability of many voters to accurately evaluate them. On top of that, "very smart ideas are going to be hard for people to adopt, because most people don’t have the sophistication to recognize how good an idea is," Dunning told Life's Little Mysteries.

He and colleague Justin Kruger, formerly of Cornell and now of New York University, have demonstrated again and again that people are self-delusional when it comes to their own intellectual skills. Whether the researchers are testing people's ability to rate the funniness of jokes, the correctness of grammar, or even their own performance in a game of chess, the duo has found  that people always assess their own performance as "above average" — even people who, when tested, actually perform at the very bottom of the pile. [Incompetent People Too Ignorant to Know It]

We're just as undiscerning about the skills of others as about ourselves. "To the extent that you are incompetent, you are a worse judge of incompetence in other people," Dunning said. In one study, the researchers asked students to grade quizzes that tested for grammar skill. "We found that students who had done worse on the test itself gave more inaccurate grades to other students." Essentially, they didn't recognize the correct answer even when they saw it.

The reason for this disconnect is simple: "If you have gaps in your knowledge in a given area, then you’re not in a position to assess your own gaps or the gaps of others," Dunning said. Strangely though, in these experiments, people tend to readily and accurately agree on who the worst performers are, while failing to recognize the best performers.

The most incompetent among us serve as canaries in the coal mine signifying a larger quandary in the concept of democracy; truly ignorant people may be the worst judges of candidates and ideas, Dunning said, but we all suffer from a degree of blindness stemming from our own personal lack of expertise.

Mato Nagel, a sociologist in Germany, recently implemented Dunning and Kruger's theories by computer-simulating a democratic election. In his mathematical model of the election, he assumed that voters' own leadership skills were distributed on a bell curve — some were really good leaders, some, really bad, but most were mediocre — and that each voter was incapable of recognizing the leadership skills of a political candidate as being better than his or her own. When such an election was simulated, candidates whose leadership skills were only slightly better than average always won.

Nagel concluded that democracies rarely or never elect the best leaders. Their advantage over dictatorships or other forms of government is merely that they "effectively preven



http://news.yahoo.com/people-arent-smart-enough-democracy-flourish-scientists-185601411.html

TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

The first question most women ask on a first date is ...what do you do for a living.  This is evidence that most women and many men think about one thing...money. They value others by their wealth in federal reserve notes or things that can be converted in FRNs. If  you project that into politics, government represents itself as the ultimate provider and modern media has done a fair job of denigrating the individual man as provider. This serves the immoral government. It stands before the population  with bloated promises of fidelity and provision beyond what a mere man can muster....Government wasn't happy with just supplanting the man in the family it now seeks god status. Our conditioning as a people to collectivism is near complete...

2seaoat



The first question most women ask on a first date is ...what do you do for a living.

I guess I was too young when I was with a woman on a first date. I never had somebody ask me that question. I had a question of what I wanted to do with my life, but we were all in school.....we were undefined, and not the least bit concerned about making a living. I worked and paid my way through school, so it was simply a different time. Nobody cared, and there were plenty of factory jobs which allowed you to work and pay for your school, and just have fun. Money in the seventies was just not our concern.....being young was an end onto itself.

Floridatexan

Floridatexan


Same with me, Seaoat. I was already working in HS and college. I think the question only means that the person wants to know you better...Teo, unfortunately, must have had a different kind of experience.

knothead

knothead

Real democracy requires an informed electorate first and foremost but secondly, people must VOTE. Voter turnout in America is a slap in the face to those who came before us and passed the responsibility to be involved and informed followed by casting a vote, right or left, but so far in recent elections citizens are so apathetic that they just do not vote . . . . very discouraging and suggests that the status quo is acceptable . . . . . I disagree and and am dismayed.

EmeraldGhost

EmeraldGhost

knothead wrote:Real democracy requires an informed electorate first and foremost but secondly, people must VOTE. Voter turnout in America is a slap in the face to those who came before us and passed the responsibility to be involved and informed followed by casting a vote, right or left, but so far in recent elections citizens are so apathetic that they just do not vote . . . . very discouraging and suggests that the status quo is acceptable . . . . . I disagree and and am dismayed.  

It's probably all for the better some people tend to not very often actually come down to the polls & vote.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

Guest


Guest

knothead wrote:Real democracy requires an informed electorate first and foremost but secondly, people must VOTE. Voter turnout in America is a slap in the face to those who came before us and passed the responsibility to be involved and informed followed by casting a vote, right or left, but so far in recent elections citizens are so apathetic that they just do not vote . . . . very discouraging and suggests that the status quo is acceptable . . . . . I disagree and and am dismayed.  


Not voting does not mean that the status quo is acceptable.  It means there is not one person worthy of my precious right to vote.   If I do not have a choice why would I vote.  This is not unpatriotic or slapping the country in the face.  It's exercising my right and it is my right to not vote if I so choose.

Do you want horse shit or cow shit smeared on your face?  VOTE!  I'll choose neither.

2seaoat



Not voting does not mean that the status quo is acceptable. It means there is not one person worthy of my precious right to vote. If I do not have a choice why would I vote. This is not unpatriotic or slapping the country in the face. It's exercising my right and it is my right to not vote if I so choose.

Do you want horse shit or cow shit smeared on your face? VOTE! I'll choose neither.


I agree...your right to be lazy and ill informed is your choice. I have voted in every election since I was 18 except one election when I moved, and have NEVER found two candidates to be the same. If you take the time, it is hard work to be informed in a voting booth. We live in a great country, but I am so thankful that immigrants are coming to this country because they appreciate what we have here and do not take it for granted like the folks who are lazy and slothful and believe they are simply entitled. They are not. Democracy is hard work. State and local elections require visiting candidate forums. Meeting the candidates and understanding their strengths and weakness. It is more than a rasling match. It is the development of issues which improve our government and the ability to distinguish right and wrong answers which matter. Lazy and slothful rationalizations do not hide the truth.

TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

Floridatexan wrote:
Same with me, Seaoat.  I was already working in HS and college.  I think the question only means that the person wants to know you better...Teo, unfortunately, must have had a different kind of experience.  

Naw I was young, married and making plenty of money in the 70s. My wife was a full time homemaker living in a beautiful 2 story house on a mountain top in Brevard N.C. It was the living definition of the American Dream.
The time I am addressing is the last 10 years...people are so much more obsessed with money...it's getting worse it seems. Everyone but seaoat and Boards knows the economic crash is coming soon, maybe most feel it at a subconscious level, so they think about money all the time..I find  more people asking for $ help than ever...trillions have been pumped into the failing economy. It is like giving a constant transfusion to a 115 year old man that's practically dead...politicians like Trump are promising to make America great again...I  see why that promise sells...I got my social security statement a couple days ago..it said my amount would stay the same because there was no inflation....it did make me laugh...who knew bureaucrats could do comedy ?

Floridatexan

Floridatexan


Dunning-Kruger aside...if you don't vote, you lose your right to complain about the outcome. If you consider your vote "precious", then it is your duty to protect it. I admit to cynicism about voting in general, after the SCOTUS decided the outcome of the Florida vote in 2000, and knowing that electronic voting is not tamper-proof (Ohio, 2004)...and in view of the efforts of some governors to disenfranchise voters in their respective states through illegitimate means. That doesn't mean I'll stop voting and proactively encouraging others to vote.

Guest


Guest

Well Eliteoat I have always voted. I am informed. If labeling what someone shares as frustration makes you feel like a big man then so be it. If it makes you feel more patriotic to say you may not have a say unless you vote, FT, whatever.

I have always voted. This is the first election where I sit here and say I do not know who the hell I will vote for.

Mickey Mouse is looking good.

Floridatexan

Floridatexan

SheWrites wrote:Well Eliteoat I have always voted.  I am informed.  If labeling what someone shares as frustration makes you feel like a big man then so be it.  If it makes you feel more patriotic to say you may not have a say unless you vote, FT, whatever.

I have always voted.  This is the first election where I sit here and say I do not know who the hell I will vote for.

Mickey Mouse is looking good.


There's still time to make up your mind, and you have plenty of resources at your disposal. Patriotic? You will never hear me say "my country, right or wrong". I don't agree with that. I also don't agree with "if you don't like it here, leave". Nope...we live in a representative democracy; that comes with certain responsibilities...like jury duty, which I was called to in early December. I wasn't happy about it, but I did it.

TEOTWAWKI

TEOTWAWKI

A Time for Everything
1There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:
2a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
4a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
6a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.

2seaoat



I just find more intellectual dishonesty as people pose about no choices. That is simple slothful and lazy thinking or the lack therein of the same. I find people who have cocooned in their homes, withdrew from the community, and in their quest for individual comfort have lost their moral compass and cannot figure out how to fill that void. It is simple. Give a chit. Take the time to meet your neighbors. Volunteer and become involved in your community. Understand what is necessary to make your community better. Yea, it is hard. It is uncomfortable, and at times it is risky, but the wussification of this great nation starts with rationalizing that nothing matters. and the mind numbing stupidity of simplistic avoidance of truth . Such intellectual dishonesty has always been the prerequisite for bad things in Man's history. Good people need to work for good, and it starts at the ballot box and being informed about truth versus fear and propaganda I have lived my life to the fullest and I have helped my community and never been happier not making excuses about there are no differences........for a mentally challenged person perhaps.

Guest


Guest

2seaoat wrote:I just find more intellectual dishonesty as people pose about no choices.  That is simple slothful and lazy thinking or the lack therein of the same.  I find people who have cocooned in their homes, withdrew from the community, and in their quest for individual comfort have lost their moral compass and cannot figure out how to fill that void.  It is simple.  Give a chit.   Take the time to meet your neighbors.   Volunteer and become involved in your community.   Understand what is necessary to make your community better.   Yea, it is hard.  It is uncomfortable, and at times it is risky, but the wussification of this great nation starts with rationalizing that nothing matters. and the mind numbing stupidity of simplistic avoidance of truth .   Such intellectual dishonesty has always been the prerequisite for bad things in Man's history.   Good people need to work for good, and it starts at the ballot box and being informed about truth versus fear and propaganda  I have lived my life to the fullest and I have helped my community and never been happier not making excuses about there are no differences........for a mentally challenged person perhaps.

Mr Eliteoat Mouth,

I realize it is fun for you to attempt to get underneath one's skin so as to keep this forum moving along.

We all know you are the best of the best, the smartest of the smart, and most informed of the informed, and the rest of the population does not measure up unless it is someone you know that seems to make you even more important just because you know them.

Honesty, in saying there is no one worthy of a vote is simply, Honesty. It has nothing to do with one's character, integrity, education, or whether they live in an Eliteoat affirmed community of intelligence.

Do you not agree that this is the worst field of candidates? Of course you won't. You have to be devils advocate.

S

2seaoat



Do you not agree that this is the worst field of candidates? Of course you won't. You have to be devils advocate.


Not at all. I think there are three very good Republican candidates and three very good Democrat Candidates. It reminds me of so many of my daughter's friends who are unmarried and 35. I watched these beautiful children mature and turn into young woman. Most have a little too much weight, and the dating scene has not been fair to them. Beautiful children with so much to give to another human being. Beautiful mothers who will never have that joy. Judged by a superficial world of easy and fast answers. It makes me incredibly sad that I cannot match them with people who could find joy and happiness together, but this illusion of perfection. The enemy of good is perfection, and like a young man full of himself who disrespects a young woman who may carry some extra weight, the voters of this country are intellectually lazy. We see there are a great many men on this forum who are not with a woman now, who live somewhat bitter lives because of that illusion of perfection and that their void can be filled by making the world pessimistic and dark. There is no perfect candidate since Jesus, and to think otherwise is a fools errand, but there are good people running for public office and when the punsters quit judging them for a few extra pounds or looks, you will find that policy and character matter. I have met incredible people in my life's journey, and I will share those people with you, and I make no excuses for who I am, because I give a chit, I vote, and I want America to remain strong and live up to its ideals. So rationalize your slothful intellectual dishonesty anyway you want.......at my ten year reunion this skinny little girl who never got a bit of male attention in high school blossomed into this beautiful woman who had the last laugh as she was happy and confident......it is time to move beyond the superficial and focus on issues which will make America better.

Guest


Guest

And Eliteoat pontificates.

Rolling Eyes

2seaoat



And Eliteoat pontificates.


So many thoughts so little time.

Markle

Markle

My guess would be that not half of voters today know anything about the issues or anything about who or what they are voting for or against. We need fewer uninformed voters, not more.

We have gone from JFK saying: "And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country."

To an openly Socialist Democrat saying that your country should do EVERYTHING FOR YOU.

My take is that we are at the apathy to dependence stage.

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance to selfishness; From selfishness to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage.”
― Alexander Fraser Tytler

2seaoat



There is no reliable record of Alexander Tytler's having written any part of the text.[12] In fact, it actually comprises two parts which didn't begin to appear together until the 1970s. The first paragraph's earliest known appearance[13] is in an op-ed piece by Elmer T. Peterson in the 9 December 1951 The Daily Oklahoman, which attributed it to Tytler:

More Markle make up chit. America is a great nation which will prevail. Your kowtowing to those who pay you to prostitute your American ideals means you are nothing more in your senior years than a traitor to this great nation. We each make our own choices.

Floridatexan

Floridatexan

2seaoat wrote:There is no reliable record of Alexander Tytler's having written any part of the text.[12] In fact, it actually comprises two parts which didn't begin to appear together until the 1970s. The first paragraph's earliest known appearance[13] is in an op-ed piece by Elmer T. Peterson in the 9 December 1951 The Daily Oklahoman, which attributed it to Tytler:

More Markle make up chit.  America is a great nation which will prevail.  Your kowtowing to those who pay you to prostitute your American ideals means you are nothing more in your senior years than a traitor to this great nation.  We each make our own choices.

lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol!

Markle

Markle

2seaoat wrote:There is no reliable record of Alexander Tytler's having written any part of the text.[12] In fact, it actually comprises two parts which didn't begin to appear together until the 1970s. The first paragraph's earliest known appearance[13] is in an op-ed piece by Elmer T. Peterson in the 9 December 1951 The Daily Oklahoman, which attributed it to Tytler:

More Markle make up chit.  America is a great nation which will prevail.  Your kowtowing to those who pay you to prostitute your American ideals means you are nothing more in your senior years than a traitor to this great nation.  We each make our own choices.

Makes no difference who the author was.  I simply posted the quote and the quote is extremely accurate

What did I make up? AGAIN you have nothing to say about the subject. I am shocked...SHOCKED I SAY! Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy



Last edited by Markle on 12/27/2015, 3:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

2seaoat



Hardly.....America gets better each year.

Markle

Markle

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance to selfishness; From selfishness to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage.”
― Alexander Fraser Tytler

Sponsored content



Back to top  Message [Page 1 of 2]

Go to page : 1, 2  Next

Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum