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2016 Election - How does America move forward

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KarlRove
Sal
2seaoat
Hospital Bob
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Guest


Guest

1. How do Democrats let go of the blame toward President Bush?

2. How do Republicans let go of the blame toward President Obama?

3. Do we find a new common ground FOR THE PEOPLE?

4. Can we "LET IT GO" and move on to a new vision for America?

5. What is THE plan - be it Democrat, Republican, or Independent?


Some solid discussion without mentioning or blaming the aforementioned Presidents would be interesting.

Get over your religious bents in this conversation.

Don't let me hear crickets...

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

I hate to be a terminal cynic when it comes to this, SheWrites.
I truly wish I could have some optimism about where this country is going.
But how can I when everything I see points to a nation in gradual decline.

I can't agree with your premise. I don't think there is any such thing as a "political" solution to it.
I'm convinced what is happening to this country is simply the natural evolution of what what has resulted from it's now having to compete with other regions of the world, particularly Asia.



2seaoat



1. How do Democrats let go of the blame toward President Bush?


The whole concept of blame game is a propaganda technique which defers the rational discussion of the roots of bad government policy and is a tell that a person is over simplifying underlying issues.

2. How do Republicans let go of the blame toward President Obama?


Creating a false equivalency is also a worn out propaganda technique which defers the rational discussion of the roots of bad government policy, and rather creates a false comparison. The unprecedented success in government policies of the Obama administration is not the cause of the hatred toward President Obama by a significant minority of Americans. It is the color of his skin.

3. Do we find a new common ground FOR THE PEOPLE?

There is common ground on the majority of issues and the polls indicate the same. If however, special interests can gain by creating division among the American public where consistently Americans will vote against their economic interests, the issue is not the need to find a "new" common ground, rather a need to identify those who are harming America and who are paying representatives to work against those clear areas of American consensus.

4. Can we "LET IT GO" and move on to a new vision for America?




This assumes the identification of bad public policy and the political tension from the same is bad for America and that if we only put our hands over our eyes, ears, and mouth, that America would have a new vision......yes, this is exactly what those who are paying to influence congress would hope would be the goal as we deny the clear indications that many of our policies are flawed and correctable. The grappling of power, money, and influence from the grips of a few who work against the American middle class will not be clean, Very Happy , or easy, but will require diligence and determination to get campaign finance reform, reductions of subsidy for the very wealthy, and focus on those issues the vast majority of Americans agree.

5. What is THE plan - be it Democrat, Republican, or Independent?
The American system of government is dynamic and designed with checks and balances where the party platforms define the issues for each party and the American electorate used to make the decision as to what ideas were going to be part of the plan.......but with changes in campaign financing a candidate can be supported by special interests and we can have actual discussions during a national campaign about the absurd concept of self deportation, yet we are unable to create jobs and invest in our infrastructure. It begins and ends with campaign finance reform, and the Supreme Court recognizing under the Citizen dicta that public corruption does not have to be direct quid pro quo, but that indirect quid pro quo is a legitimate threat to the American election process and that Congress should have its constitutional mandated authority to regulate elections recognized, and not stripped of that authority by a conceptual Ivory tower approach to money's inherent corrupting influence in the electoral process.

2seaoat



But how can I when everything I see points to a nation in gradual decline.


This nation is not in a gradual decline. It has unlimited upside as we migrate to better energy policies, more carefully thought out foreign interventions, and more rational trade policies. I remember getting a color TV in 1966 and how expensive the same was......four hundred or five hundred dollars. Yet, today the same can be bought with the same dollars almost fifty years later. An acre of corn land in grade A soil would get a hundred bushels, and today the average is 200. A Car would get 8 to 15 mpg and today most are getting over forty and higher with the advent of electric. Renewable energy is growing. The crime rate is dropping. Medical advancements are advancing.

America and its future is very bright with the increased participation and diligence of the America public to address the public corruption of campaign finance abuses. Americans will take their country back once the selfish let me get as much as I can get babyboom generation fades from relevancy, and is replaced by an America first dynamic which is not centered around sex, money and drugs...........the babyboomer national anthem.....and of course what can you do for your babyboomer motto.

Guest


Guest

Bob,
I understand the cynicism. Time to shed it.
Look at question #3 "Do we find a new common ground FOR THE PEOPLE?

I'm saying can we let go of the politics and do what is best for the people?

What would that look like? What is the plan?

I think we all are so cynical we can't move aside the crap and see if we are capable of understanding what is needed. We just tolerate and accept the pablum of two parties. How do the PEOPLE rise above?




SheWrites wrote:1.  How do Democrats let go of the blame toward President Bush?

2.  How do Republicans let go of the blame toward President Obama?

3.  Do we find a new common ground FOR THE PEOPLE?

4.  Can we "LET IT GO" and move on to a new vision for America?

5.  What is THE plan - be it Democrat, Republican, or Independent?


Some solid discussion without mentioning or blaming the aforementioned Presidents would be interesting.

Get over your religious bents in this conversation.

Don't let me hear crickets...

Sal

Sal

… [T]here has never been a time in American history when the alleged personal traits of candidates mattered less. As we head into 2016, each party is quite unified on major policy issues — and these unified positions are very far from each other. The huge, substantive gulf between the parties will be reflected in the policy positions of whomever they nominate, and will almost surely be reflected in the actual policies adopted by whoever wins.

For example, any Democrat would, if elected, seek to maintain the basic U.S. social insurance programs — Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid — in essentially their current form, while also preserving and extending the Affordable Care Act. Any Republican would seek to destroy Obamacare, make deep cuts in Medicaid, and probably try to convert Medicare into a voucher system.

Any Democrat would retain the tax hikes on high-income Americans that went into effect in 2013, and possibly seek more. Any Republican would try to cut taxes on the wealthy — House Republicans plan to vote next week to repeal the estate tax — while slashing programs that aid low-income families.

Any Democrat would try to preserve the 2010 financial reform, which has recently been looking much more effective than critics suggested. Any Republican would seek to roll it back, eliminating both consumer protection and the extra regulation applied to large, “systemically important” financial institutions.

And any Democrat would try to move forward on climate policy, through executive action if necessary, while any Republican — whether or not he is an outright climate-science denialist — would block efforts to limit greenhouse gas emissions.

Now, some people won’t want to acknowledge that the choices in the 2016 election are as stark as I’ve asserted. Political commentators who specialize in covering personalities rather than issues will balk at the assertion that their alleged area of expertise matters not at all. Self-proclaimed centrists will look for a middle ground that doesn’t actually exist. And as a result, we’ll hear many assertions that the candidates don’t really mean what they say. There will, however, be an asymmetry in the way this supposed gap between rhetoric and real views is presented.

One thing is for sure: American voters will be getting a real choice. May the best party win.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/13/opinion/it-takes-a-party.html?_r=0

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

SheWrites wrote:

I'm saying can we let go of the politics and do what is best for the people?

What would that look like?  What is the plan?

I think we all are so cynical we can't move aside the crap and see if we are capable of understanding what is needed.  We just tolerate and accept the pablum of two parties.  How do the PEOPLE rise above?  


If we're talking strictly about politics,  I don't think most Americans are cynical ENOUGH about the politics.
Most Americans are content to choose sides between "democrat/liberal" and "republican/conservative" with one side believing "democrat/liberal" is the solution to everything and the other side believing "republican/conservative" is the solution to everything.
All you have to do is listen to Sal and Markle because they represent what most Amerians are thinking.

Guest


Guest

Most Americans are involved in some fashion in education. Children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, friends kids, teaching, or maybe just trying to employ an educated person.

What if the new American plan of education (since we're talking about how to move America forward) looked something like this. A few have mentioned this style of education based on other countries and because it makes sense. With our current Dept. of Education, seems all we do is standardized tests to get a child passed through school so they can possibly find a scholarship or, as most, have student loans out the kazoo.

So, and this is by no means perfect, here's what I think could be a starting point...needs lots of work.

Grades pre K through 6th - emphasis on reading, math/reasoning, communication

6th through 9th - testing and emphasis on upper learning track or technical skills depending on abilities outcome; continued emphasis on reading, math/reasoning, communication

10th through 12th - Students on upper level track take classes equivalent to freshman/sophomore college classes; Students on technical track work apprenticeships

Lots of tweaking needed but you get the idea.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

https://www.google.com/search?q=how+other+countries+beat+america+in+education&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

KarlRove

KarlRove

by SheWrites Today at 1:23 pm
Bob,
I understand the cynicism. Time to shed it.
Look at question #3 "Do we find a new common ground FOR THE PEOPLE?

I'm saying can we let go of the politics and do what is best for the people?

What would that look like? What is the plan?

I think we all are so cynical we can't move aside the crap and see if we are capable of understanding what is needed. We just tolerate and accept the pablum of two parties. How do the PEOPLE rise above?
----
There is no common ground when you have one party giving away the treasury to remain in power. When that same party wants free immigration and to give the taxes away for the newcomers who haven't even contributed a dime to the nation before their hand gets stuck out. If every illegal here gets to stay legally, what mitt Romney said about the 47% not paying into the system easily becomes 50%. Yes, there are that many illegals here. When this nation started, when it was 25,50, 100, 125,
150 years old there wasnt this mentality that the government was to be a sole provider and you didn't have to work unless you wanted to. People worked because they took pride in doing for themselves. That doesn't exist anymore even with some of the citizens who have had ancestors that immigrated generations ago.

Seaoat, you are wrong and wrong for some of the
Reasons I just outlined to she writes. We are in decline because too many people refuse to try and work because the
Government has made it easier to suck it's teat
Than to work and provide for hour family. That's exactly why we are in decline and the reason why folks with
Money are becoming expats in record numbers

Sal

Sal

Bob wrote:
If we're talking strictly about politics,  I don't think most Americans are cynical ENOUGH about the politics.
Most Americans are content to choose sides between "democrat/liberal" and "republican/conservative" with one side believing "democrat/liberal" is the solution to everything and the other side believing "republican/conservative" is the solution to everything.
All you have to do is listen to Sal and Markle because they represent what most Amerians are thinking.

That is demonstrably and emphatically nothing more than a pile of steaming horseshit.

2seaoat



[b]Seaoat, you are wrong and wrong for some of the
Reasons I just outlined to she writes. We are in decline because too many people refuse to try and work because the
Government has made it easier to suck it's teat
Than to work and provide for hour family. That's exactly why we are in decline and the reason why folks with
Money are becoming expats in record numbers
[/b

Then you agree that the military budget can be cut by 25% and those on the government teat can enter the private sector job market by taking those massive cuts and investing in American infrastructure which creates American private sector jobs, raises revenues, cuts expenses, and puts the yellow caution flag in the air when dealing with foreign policy issues. I see very little difference in a government employee and a person getting food stamps....they cause taxpayer expense to go up, they add marginal benefit to improving productivity and growth of the GDP. A mothballed tank rots and is eventually scrap metal, an investment in a bridge creates private sector jobs, better transportation which improves American productivity, and takes teat suckers off government payrolls. We completely agree.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

Sal wrote:
Bob wrote:
If we're talking strictly about politics,  I don't think most Americans are cynical ENOUGH about the politics.
Most Americans are content to choose sides between "democrat/liberal" and "republican/conservative" with one side believing "democrat/liberal" is the solution to everything and the other side believing "republican/conservative" is the solution to everything.
All you have to do is listen to Sal and Markle because they represent what most Amerians are thinking.

That is demonstrably and emphatically nothing more than a pile of steaming horseshit.

I agree. American politics has become a pile of steaming horseshit. I'm glad to see you recognize that. lol

Floridatexan

Floridatexan


http://www.alternet.org/economy/americas-middle-class-27th-richest?paging=off&current_page=1#bookmark

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

One way to move forward would be to stop wasting $1.5 trillion (of borrowed money) on useless shit like this.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101883138

KarlRove

KarlRove

2seaoat wrote:[b]Seaoat, you are wrong and wrong for some of the
Reasons I just outlined to she writes. We are in decline because too many people refuse to try and work because the
Government has made it easier to suck it's teat
Than to work and provide for hour family. That's exactly why we are in decline and the reason why folks with
Money are becoming expats in record numbers
[/b

Then you agree that the military budget can be cut by 25% and those on the government teat can enter the private sector job market by taking those massive cuts and investing in American infrastructure which creates American private sector jobs, raises revenues, cuts expenses, and puts the yellow caution flag in the air when dealing with foreign policy issues.  I see very little difference in a government employee and a person getting food stamps....they cause taxpayer expense to go up, they add marginal benefit to improving productivity and growth of the GDP.  A mothballed tank rots and is eventually scrap metal, an investment in a bridge creates private sector jobs, better transportation which improves American productivity, and takes teat suckers off government payrolls.  We completely agree.

The military bore the brunt of the cuts due to sequestration and not one other part of government. Your government continues to use the active duty and reserve forces at full tilt fighting battles around the world as deemed fit by both parties. Those in the military, contrary to your non experience, do provide a service to their country. You choose to continue spending the same amount by beating our weapons back into plowshares and not saving what was spent, but putting it into social programs (irresponsible) and getting caught with our pants down just as we did in Korea back in 1950. Mothballed STEEL and IRON is much more tolerable of preservation as I learned when prepping equipment to be prepositioned near Diego Garcia while stationed in Okinawa back in 1982. We've seen what happened to the "shovel ready" jobs that Obama pushed in 2009. Hardly any of that made it to middle America, but it did line the pockets of big business who neither hired more workers to take on the added jobs, saved it for another day (never spent), nor invested it to help America. You are for all the wrong things.

2seaoat



Those in the military, contrary to your non experience, do provide a service to their country.

Nobody is talking about service, we are discussing non productive assets which squander a nation's GDP and hinder that nation's productivity. When the military becomes too much of a burden on an economy, the economy suffers, and declines. Post war Germany and Japan are the models for the utter idiocy of squandering GDP on non productive assets like the military. The Military is a black hole. It is a necessary black hole which Ike warned us must not allow the tail to wag the dog. I am sorry but your service to this country was a tremendous burden on our resources. It was not your fault you were a burden on this country and you sucked on the government teat with the false impression you were making America stronger, it was the special interests and war profiteers who profited off the squandered resources, and America became weaker. Military strength has its largest component being the health of the nation's economy.

Floridatexan

Floridatexan

KarlRove wrote:by SheWrites Today at 1:23 pm
Bob,
I understand the cynicism. Time to shed it.
Look at question #3 "Do we find a new common ground FOR THE PEOPLE?

I'm saying can we let go of the politics and do what is best for the people?

What would that look like? What is the plan?

I think we all are so cynical we can't move aside the crap and see if we are capable of understanding what is needed. We just tolerate and accept the pablum of two parties. How do the PEOPLE rise above?
----
There is no common ground when you have one party giving away the treasury to remain in power. When that same party wants free immigration and to give the taxes away for the newcomers who haven't even contributed a dime to the nation before their hand gets stuck out. If every illegal here gets to stay legally, what mitt Romney said about the 47% not paying into the system easily becomes 50%. Yes, there are that many illegals here. When this nation started, when it was 25,50, 100, 125,
150 years old there wasnt this mentality that the government was to be a sole provider and you didn't have to work unless you wanted to.  People worked because they took pride in doing for themselves.  That doesn't exist anymore even with some of the citizens who have had ancestors that immigrated generations ago.

Seaoat, you are wrong and wrong for some of the
Reasons I just outlined to she writes. We are in decline because too many people refuse to try and work because the
Government has made it easier to suck it's teat
Than to work and provide for hour family. That's exactly why we are in decline and the reason why folks with
Money are becoming expats in record numbers

There may be one correct statement in that otherwise incoherent rant...and it's that there really does appear to be no common ground. Why? There are many reasons, but one stands out...lies, misinformation, and disinformation from the media...like FAUX NEWS. Blaming the poor, sick and disabled, while the pigs have been sucking from the trough...ordinary people are not refusing to work, dimwit; they can't find jobs, or if they have jobs, they aren't getting paid enough to keep their heads above water without public assistance. Our economy has been exploited by the banks and Wall Street, so we bailed them out and compounded the problem...and if a Republican gets into the White House, there will be no reversal of the trend...the one that started with Reagan and exploded in 2008.

Markle

Markle

2seaoat wrote:But how can I when everything I see points to a nation in gradual decline.


This nation is not in a gradual decline.  It has unlimited upside as we migrate to better energy policies, more carefully thought out foreign interventions, and more rational trade policies.  I remember getting a color TV in 1966 and how expensive the same was......four hundred or five hundred dollars.  Yet, today the same can be bought with the same dollars almost fifty years later.   An acre of corn land in grade A soil would get a hundred bushels, and today the average is 200.   A Car would get 8 to 15 mpg and today most are getting over forty and higher with the advent of electric.  Renewable energy is growing.  The crime rate is dropping.  Medical advancements are advancing.

America and its future is very bright with the increased participation and diligence of the America public to address the public corruption of campaign finance abuses.  Americans will take their country back once the selfish let me get as much as I can get babyboom generation fades from relevancy, and is replaced by an America first dynamic which is not centered around sex, money and drugs...........the babyboomer national anthem.....and of course what can you do for your babyboomer motto.

To say we're NOT in decline is ignoring facts. Something common among Progressives.

Markle

Markle

Bob wrote:One way to move forward would be to stop wasting $1.5 trillion (of borrowed money) on useless shit like this.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101883138

Please post ALL the facts. I realize that is difficult for Progressives.

As you KNOW, the $1.5 trillion, is over a period of FIFTY FIVE YEARS.

2seaoat



To say we're NOT in decline is ignoring facts. Something common among Progressives.


We are digging out of a hole which was created by special interests and MIC to profit off war and bankrupt America......the policies in place are turning America in the right direction. Our future is bright, and just because yours is not, do not superimpose your futility on this great country. I hear you could retire to Poland or Norway and live quite comfortably on your government check. The rest of us will celebrate this great country and work for continued success.

Floridatexan

Floridatexan

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/11/opinion/paul-krugman-wall-street-vampires.html?rref=collection/column/paul-krugman&module=Ribbon&version=context&region=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Paul%20Krugman&pgtype=article

Wall Street Vampires

Last year the vampires of finance bought themselves a Congress. I know it’s not nice to call them that, but I have my reasons, which I’ll explain in a bit. For now, however, let’s just note that these days Wall Street, which used to split its support between the parties, overwhelmingly favors the G.O.P. And the Republicans who came to power this year are returning the favor by trying to kill Dodd-Frank, the financial reform enacted in 2010.

And why must Dodd-Frank die? Because it’s working.

This statement may surprise progressives who believe that nothing significant has been done to rein in runaway bankers. And it’s true both that reform fell well short of what we really should have done and that it hasn’t yielded obvious, measurable triumphs like the gains in insurance thanks to Obamacare.

But Wall Street hates reform for a reason, and a closer look shows why.

For one thing, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau — the brainchild of Senator Elizabeth Warren — is, by all accounts, having a major chilling effect on abusive lending practices. And early indications are that enhanced regulation of financial derivatives — which played a major role in the 2008 crisis — is having similar effects, increasing transparency and reducing the profits of middlemen.

What about the problem of financial industry structure, sometimes oversimplified with the phrase “too big to fail”? There, too, Dodd-Frank seems to be yielding real results, in fact, more than many supporters expected.

As I’ve just suggested, too big to fail doesn’t quite get at the problem here. What was really lethal was the interaction between size and complexity. Financial institutions had become chimeras: part bank, part hedge fund, part insurance company, and so on. This complexity let them evade regulation, yet be rescued from the consequences when their bets went bad. And bankers’ ability to have it both ways helped set America up for disaster.

Dodd-Frank addressed this problem by letting regulators subject “systemically important” financial institutions to extra regulation, and seize control of such institutions at times of crisis, as opposed to simply bailing them out. And it required that financial institutions in general put up more capital, reducing both their incentive to take excessive risks and the chance that risk-taking would lead to bankruptcy.

All of this seems to be working: “Shadow banking,” which created bank-type risks while evading bank-type regulation, is in retreat. You can see this in cases like that of General Electric, a manufacturing firm that turned itself into a financial wheeler-dealer, but is now trying to return to its roots. You can also see it in the overall numbers, where conventional banking — which is to say, banking subject to relatively strong regulation — has made a comeback. Evading the rules, it seems, isn’t as appealing as it used to be.

But the vampires are fighting back.

O.K., why do I call them that? Not because they drain the economy of its lifeblood, although they do: there’s a lot of evidence that oversize, overpaid financial industries — like ours — hurt economic growth and stability. Even the International Monetary Fund agrees.

But what really makes the word apt in this context is that the enemies of reform can’t withstand sunlight. Open defenses of Wall Street’s right to go back to its old ways are hard to find. When right-wing think tanks do try to claim that regulation is a bad thing that will hurt the economy, their hearts don’t seem to be in it. For example, the latest such “study,” from the American Action Forum, runs to all of four pages, and even its author, the economist Douglas Holtz-Eakin, sounds embarrassed about his work.

What you mostly get, instead, is slavery-is-freedom claims that reform actually empowers the bad guys: for example, that regulating too-big-and-complex-to-fail institutions is somehow doing wheeler-dealers a favor, claims belied by the desperate efforts of such institutions to avoid the “systemically important” designation. The point is that almost nobody wants to be seen as a bought and paid-for servant of the financial industry, least of all those who really are exactly that.

And this in turn means that so far, at least, the vampires are getting a lot less than they expected for their money. Republicans would love to undo Dodd-Frank, but they are, rightly, afraid of the glare of publicity that defenders of reform like Senator Warren — who inspires a remarkable amount of fear in the unrighteous — would shine on their efforts.

Does this mean that all is well on the financial front? Of course not. Dodd-Frank is much better than nothing, but far from being all we need. And the vampires are still lurking in their coffins, waiting to strike again. But things could be worse.

*************

Yes...things could be worse.  Like electing a right-wing sellout who would try to gut social programs, kill social security, and remove all barriers to "free markets", which means the financial sector could go in for the "kill".  Anyone who votes for a GOP candidate in this day and age needs a frontal lobotomy.

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

Markle wrote:
Bob wrote:One way to move forward would be to stop wasting $1.5 trillion (of borrowed money) on useless shit like this.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101883138

Please post ALL the facts.  I realize that is difficult for Progressives.

As you KNOW, the $1.5 trillion, is over a period of FIFTY FIVE YEARS.

I guess you're right,  markle.  It's just like those houses you sell.   They don't really cost hundreds of thousands.  The real price is the monthly payment amount.  lol

Hospital Bob

Hospital Bob

I can't believe I just read that.  Somebody who claims to be a fiscal "conservative" actually trying to defend the most expensive government spending boondoggle in American history...

https://www.google.com/search?q=f-35+debacle&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

KarlRove

KarlRove

by 2seaoat Yesterday at 5:35 pm
Those in the military, contrary to your non experience, do provide a service to their country.

Nobody is talking about service, we are discussing non productive assets which squander a nation's GDP and hinder that nation's productivity. When the military becomes too much of a burden on an economy, the economy suffers, and declines. Post war Germany and Japan are the models for the utter idiocy of squandering GDP on non productive assets like the military. The Military is a black hole. It is a necessary black hole which Ike warned us must not allow the tail to wag the dog. I am sorry but your service to this country was a tremendous burden on our resources. It was not your fault you were a burden on this country and you sucked on the government teat with the false impression you were making America stronger, it was the special interests and war profiteers who profited off the squandered resources, and America became weaker. Military strength has its largest component being the health of the nation's economy.
----
Whaaa you whine a lot.

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