Michael Jordan

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/originals/2015/03/06/mj-triple-doubles-030515.nba/


1989 flashback...Jordan scores triple doubles in 7 consecutive games.

If he had not lost his father in an unexpected tragedy and never went to play baseball, he would have won eight straight championships and his stats would have been other worldly.......but I have seen him play live in regular and playoff games, and I have seen James play live.....I can say this without any hesitation....Kobie comparisons make more sense right now, and those make no sense. People will beat his statistical records in the next 50 years but nobody will be better. Having watched Karl Malone regularly he has the closest comparison to the James game, and both were and are amazing......but Mr. Jordan is in rare air.

Jordan wouldn't make it out of the first round of the playoffs with this current Cleveland team.

Lebron could win 10 titles with his eyes closed with Jordan's HOF squad.

boards of FL wrote:Jordan wouldn't make it out of the first round of the playoffs with this current Cleveland team.  

Lebron could win 10 titles with his eyes closed with Jordan's HOF squad.

I think Lebron had his eyes closed when Cleveland played Miami.

I think Lebron had his eyes closed when Cleveland played Miami.


He better open them April 2nd and in the first round of the playoffs.......If James is such a great all time player.....why only a couple MVP the last few years and not even in real consideration last year or this year.........simple facts.....he is not even dominate in his era.

2seaoat wrote:I think Lebron had his eyes closed when Cleveland played Miami.


He better open them April 2nd and in the first round of the playoffs.......If James is such a great all time player.....why only a couple MVP the last few years and not even in real consideration last year or this year.........simple facts.....he is not even dominate in his era.

Let's be honest here.  LeBron James is truly the MVP every year.  The same could said about Michael Jordan in his era.  The only reason anyone else ever wins or won the MVP when LeBron and Jordan were playing is due to people getting tired of giving the award to the same player again and again.  

You don't honestly believe that Harden, Curry, or Westbrook are more valuable players than LeBron, do you?  You don't honestly believe that Rose was a more valuable player than LeBron in the year that Rose won it, do you?  Durant?  

It's basically LeBron at #1 every year and #2 is light years behind.  There isn't any player in the NBA - now, or in Jordan's era - that is so far beyond everyone else that you can literally put them on a lottery team, and then that lottery team is favored to win an NBA title; and yet that is what LeBron is doing right now.

Derrick Rose was somehow awarded the MVP in the 10-11 season.  

PPG

Rose: 25.0
James: 26.7

FG%

Rose: .445
James: .510

3P%

Rose: .332
James: .330

Rebounds:

Rose: 4.1
James: 7.5

Assists:

Rose: 7.7
James: 7.0

Blocks

Rose: 0.6
James: 0.6

Steals

Rose: 1.0
James: 1.6

+/-

Rose: +6.1
James: +7.8

Double doubles

Rose: 23
James: 31

Triple doubles

Rose: 1
James: 4

You don't honestly believe that Rose was a more valuable player than LeBron in the year that Rose won it, do you?

Absolutely. Dallas won the championship that year in a not even close series with James 4-2. James was not even close to the most valuable player. Now if you asked me if Dirk was more deserving, I would have to answer yes. The simple fact you keep wanting to ignore last year and again this year is that Mr. James has a HISTORY of fading at crunch time and he has simply not won the big games which I clearly last year outlined only to be told that he would be a repeat winner, and this year I am telling you flat out that he will not be on the championship team. He cherry picks players, and like a magnet draws top free agents, but he cannot get it done. He also will not win the mvp this year.

Derrick Rose was somehow awarded the MVP in the 10-11 season.


Pretty much a tie statistically which does raise the legitimate question of many which is when players are so closely grouped statistically how do you determine value to the team he plays for........Rose elevated a very young team to contention, James after putting together this era's dream team just could not translate that value which was assumed to victory.........so yes a Rose to James comparison Rose wins the MVP, but as I earlier alluded the real tragedy that year was Dirk did not get the award, but his stats were not even, but his VALUE to that Dallas team was unquestioned.

2seaoat wrote:Derrick Rose was somehow awarded the MVP in the 10-11 season.  


Pretty much a tie statistically which does raise the legitimate question of many which is when players are so closely grouped statistically how do you determine value to the team he plays for........Rose elevated a very young team to contention, James after putting together this era's dream team just could not translate that value which was assumed to victory.........so yes a Rose to James comparison Rose wins the MVP, but as I earlier alluded the real tragedy that year was Dirk did not get the award, but his stats were not even, but his VALUE to that Dallas team was unquestioned.

What? James outperformed Rose in almost every measurable category. Rose was a volume shooting PG who lived at the foul line. LeBron James was LeBron James. Nothing illustrates those facts better than when LeBron completely shut down Derrick Rose and helped to eliminate the Bulls out of the playoffs that year. There is no rational argument to be made here for Rose. He is an athlete first and foremost and a basketball player second. Now that his body is failing him, he's about as useful as Michael Vick.

Bulls vs Heat stats from the 2010-2011 post season matchup.   There is absolutely no rational argument to be made here.  

Rose

PPG: 23.4
FG%: .350
3P%: .233
Assists: 6.6
Rebounds: 4.0
Blocks: 0.2
Steals: 1.0

Lebron

PPG: 25.8
FG%: .447
3P%: .389
Assists: 6.6
Rebounds: 7.8
Blocks: 1.8
Steals: 2.4

Bosh, of course, warned Love before the season that this would happen. Speaking about playing with James, Bosh told Bleacher Report, “It’s extremely difficult and extremely frustrating.”

He was mostly focused on the impact of being with James on the floor, and the sacrifice in shots and touches that requires. Bosh was used to being the focal point in Toronto, much as Love was in Minnesota.

“You just get your entree and that’s it,” Bosh told Bleacher Report. “It’s like, wait a minute, I need my appetizer and my dessert and my drink, what are you doing? And my bread basket. What is going on? I’m hungry! It’s a lot different. But if you can get through it, good things can happen. But it never gets easy. Even up until my last year of doing it, it never gets easier.”

Consider this as you wade through the phony controversy over Love having said that Russell Westbrook, his old friend from their days at UCLA, is having a better year than his Cavaliers teammate LeBron James: Replace Westbrook with Derrick Rose, and Chris Bosh said nearly the same thing in his first year playing with James.

“I think I would give it to Derrick if I were a voter,” Chris Bosh said 37 months ago. “He's playing well. He's playing like the best point guard in the league and the best player in the league. He's the most valuable player if you really think about it. You take him out of the lineup there's no telling what you get.”

Statistics can be manipulated to prove anything.....kinda like rationalizing.

Statistics can be manipulated to prove anything.....kinda like rationalizing.


They can, but championships cannot.

2seaoat wrote:Statistics can be manipulated to prove anything.....kinda like rationalizing.


They can, but championships cannot.

Bowling and golf are not team sports.

Joanimaroni wrote:Statistics can be manipulated to prove anything.....kinda like rationalizing.  

In what way have statistics been manipulated?  There are stats that are commonly used to compare players.  I posted those.  

When you say "statistics can be manipulated", you imply that I am messing around with the numbers in some way.  In reality, I'm not.  I simply posted the stats from the year that Rose won the MVP as example of what I was saying.  People get tired of giving the MVP to the same player every year.  If they didn't, Jordan would have won the MVP almost every year that he played and Lebron would have as well.  There is simply no rational argument to be made for Rose as the MVP over LeBron outside of the fact that they had already given it to LeBron for the previous two years and wanted to give it to someone else for a change.

Yeah.  Derrick Rose.  A small point guard who looks to be 60 lbs when he's wet and wearing boots, a guy who shoots in the 30% range from the field and relies on making it to the foul line, a guy who underperformed statistically against LeBron in almost every measurable category, a guy who was shut down and eliminated from the playoffs by the Heat in spite of having homecourt advantage....deserved to win the MVP in the 10-11 season.  Cough cough.

2seaoat wrote:Statistics can be manipulated to prove anything.....kinda like rationalizing.


They can, but championships cannot.

LeBron's career could end today and I would still be more impressed with him than Jordan.  There are probably 4 or 5 players that - if we were to put them on that Bulls team in place of Jordan - would have won just as many rings.  That team was one for the ages even without Jordan.

Which quarterback is better:  Brad Johnson or Dan Marino?

Which quarterback is better: Trent Dilfer or Dan Marino?

All of these players are better than Jordan if rings are the end all stat:

Bill Russell, Sam Jones, Tom Heinsohn, K. C. Jones, Tom Sanders, John Havlicek, Jim Loscutoff, Frank Ramsey, and Robert Horry.

This guy is better than Jordan based upon the "who has more rings" argument:

boards of FL wrote:

Joanimaroni wrote:Statistics can be manipulated to prove anything.....kinda like rationalizing.  

In what way have statistics been manipulated?  There are stats that are commonly used to compare players.  I posted those.  

When you say "statistics can be manipulated", you imply that I am messing around with the numbers in some way.  In reality, I'm not.  I simply posted the stats from the year that Rose won the MVP as example of what I was saying.  People get tired of giving the MVP to the same player every year.  If they didn't, Jordan would have won the MVP almost every year that he played and Lebron would have as well.  There is simply no rational argument to be made for Rose as the MVP over LeBron outside of the fact that they had already given it to LeBron for the previous two years and wanted to give it to someone else for a change.

Yeah.  Derrick Rose.  A small point guard who looks to be 60 lbs when he's wet and wearing boots, a guy who shoots in the 30% range from the field and relies on making it to the foul line, a guy who underperformed statistically against LeBron in almost every measurable category, a guy who was shut down and eliminated from the playoffs by the Heat in spite of having homecourt advantage....deserved to win the MVP in the 10-11 season.  Cough cough.

Not slamming you....it is just statistics can be used to prove anything to support the point you are trying to make. It's not directed at you in anyway. It's the nature of statistics.


Four out of five dentists recommend.......

Bowling and golf are not team sports.


Wrong! I have competed in Ryder cup format competition and it most certainly is a team sport. Within a Ryder cup format is individual play, but the team play is amazing. My best Ryder cup was at a top 10 course called Crystal Downs on the Western Shore of lake Michigan in upper Michigan. There are incredible strategies of placing your team matches with different skill set partners. A great deal of fun and certainly more fun than a routine individual golf round. One of my fondest memories was this Scottish castle like clubhouse over looking this amazing course while having our Ryder dinner where team captains disclose their lineups and set the team.......every element of team play and excitement.

Who has the most rings is never the whole argument, but who was the best player during their era does have a great deal of weight.......I love James play, but during his era clearly Kobe and Tim Duncan will be seen as better player on the front end, and on the back end there are so many that James will be fortunate to be in the top five let alone the top. As I argued last year, Miami winning the championship would begin to give James more historic significance, but right now he is not even close to Jordan, and it really silly to talk of comparisons until he at least gets to Kobe or Tim's rings......which will never happen.

It all boils down to the fact that there is only one player that I have ever known of that, just by having that player and no matter who the supporting cast is, makes any team a championship threat.  

Can you honestly tell me that Jordan was that good?  Can you show me any time in Jordan's career where he did something impressive with a team of scrubs?  Because I can show you that with LeBron. 

Take away the supporting cast and Jordan is basically Carmello Anthony if Anthony played defense.  He'll bring you to the playoffs and you will quickly exit in the first round.  That's Jordan's resume.  "But Jordan never lost in the finals!!!" Yes. That's because he couldn't make it that far until the HOF supporting cast.

LeBron could take you, me, and Joani deep into the playoffs.

It all boils down to the fact that there is only one player that I have ever known of that, just by having that player and no matter who the supporting cast is, makes any team a championship threat.

This is your biggest fallacy. Ask the original players in Cleveland how hard it was to play with James, ask Bosh, ask Love......his career has been a train wreck of NEVER achieving success at the level others have been able to achieve CONSISTENTLY. Forget the comparison to anyone and focus on the reality, the very strengths you focus on have been his downfall. Dr. J was amazing.....but his value to the team and his ability to WIN could not be achieved. I am sorry that James has not achieved the wins because he can have the best or a rag tag collection, and he will ALWAYS be the also ran. I am amazed that he got two championships......but he showed resolve which was almost Jordan like, but then last year and probably this year he will do what he has done his WHOLE career.....fold when the pressure is on.........I will start comparing him to other people when he can simply win two or three more times in the next seven years.....but he simply is incapable of the same.......my arguments last year were dead cinch correct, and they remain correct.

2seaoat wrote:It all boils down to the fact that there is only one player that I have ever known of that, just by having that player and no matter who the supporting cast is, makes any team a championship threat.  

This is your biggest fallacy.   Ask the original players in Cleveland how hard it was to play with James, ask Bosh, ask Love......his career has been a train wreck of NEVER achieving success at the level others have been able to achieve CONSISTENTLY.   Forget the comparison to anyone and focus on the reality, the very strengths you focus on have been his downfall.  Dr. J was amazing.....but his value to the team and his ability to WIN could not be achieved.  I am sorry that James has not achieved the wins because he can have the best or a rag tag collection, and he will ALWAYS be the also ran.  I am amazed that he got two championships......but he showed resolve which was almost Jordan like, but then last year and probably this year he will do what he has done his WHOLE career.....fold when the pressure is on.........I will start comparing him to other people when he can simply win two or three more times in the next seven years.....but he simply is incapable of the same.......my arguments last year were dead cinch correct, and they remain correct.

How on earth can you say that a guy who has appeared in the last four NBA finals is inconsistent?  

Regarding your theory that LeBron is hard to play with....you're simply factually incorrect.  You are objectively wrong on that.  The exact opposite is the case.  Players want to play with LeBron.  Players love to play with LeBron.  Bosh could have made much more money in Houston and would very likely be at the top of the West today, but he isn't.  Why?  He left money on the table merely for the chance to play with LeBron for another season.  Wade left money on the table for a chance to play with LeBron for another season.  Kevin Love moved to Cleveland to play with LeBron.  Cleveland.

You are so incredibly wrong on this one that it's hilarious.  LeBron is effectively the best GM in the NBA today because everyone in the league wants to play with him.  Coaches want to coach him.

LeBron gets his teammates involved and wants everyone to enjoy in the success, whether they be scrubs or Chris Bosh.  Jordan on the hand, while surrounded by HOFers, is "me me me me me me me.  Look at me!  Look at me!"

How on earth can you say that a guy who has appeared in the last four NBA finals is inconsistent?


Jim Kelly........and you still do not get it.

Snap out of it......

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/kevin-love-and-lebron-its-chris-bosh-all-over-again/ar-AAa2E6u

“It’s extremely difficult and extremely frustrating.”