Pensacola Discussion Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

This is a forum based out of Pensacola Florida.


You are not connected. Please login or register

Austerity Even More Damaging to a Fragile Economy Than Previously Thought

4 posters

Go down  Message [Page 1 of 1]

Sal

Sal

Self-inflicted wounds ....

There might be a worse idea than cutting spending during a depression, but I doubt it.

The fundamental economic question of the last five years has been a simple one: how much does stimulus work? The answer, according to a new paper by Daniel Riera-Crichton, Carlos Vegh, and Guillermo Vuletin, is much more than we previously thought. And that means austerity has also hurt more than we thought — so much so that it might even be self-defeating.

That's right: cutting spending in a slump might actually make debt problems worse.

It's all about the fiscal multiplier. Stimulus, you see, is measured by how much one dollar of government spending increases GDP. But in a normal economy, it doesn't. That's because the Federal Reserve has its inflation target that it's determined to hit (or at least not overshoot). Government spending, though, can flood the economy with money, raising prices in the process. So the Fed, in turn, would either raise rates to offset this spending it doesn't want, or wouldn't cut rates like it otherwise would have.

Either way, the Fed's actions would keep the economy from being any bigger with more government spending than it would be without it.

But this calculus changes when there's a recession, especially if interest rates are at zero. In that case, the Fed wouldn't want to neutralize stimulus spending. So GDP would grow at least as much as spending does — what economists call a multiplier of one — and maybe more since there could be spillover effects.

Think about it like this: spending money on roads and bridges might boost the economy more than just the money the government directly spends. That's because the newly-paid construction workers will go out and spend their money too — and so on, and so forth. Indeed, even the oh-so-orthodox International Monetary Fund estimates that the fiscal multiplier might be as high as 1.7 right now.

Riera-Crichton, Vegh, and Vuletin took this analysis a step further. They focused squarely on countries that, between 1986 and 2008, had both been in a recession and increased spending. This last point is critical. Stimulus, remember, is supposed to be countercyclical: the government spends more when the economy shrinks. But historically-speaking, countries have actually cut spending about half the time that they've been in a slump. So counting all that austerity as "stimulus," as most do, gives us a misleadingly low estimate of the multiplier, something like 1.3. But it turns out, based on this new better sample, that the multiplier is really around 2.3 during a garden-variety recession, and 3.1 during a severe one.

That's not quite a free lunch, but, economically-speaking, it's a free mid-morning snack.

This leaves us in an upside-down world where smaller deficits might actually make our debt problems worse. When interest rates are zero, spending cuts can cripple the economy so much that GDP falls more than the government saves. And that means the debt-to-GDP ratio might increase even though government spending is decreasing — like it has in Greece. That's why the IMF thinks infrastructure spending would almost pay for itself right now, and why Larry Summers and Brad DeLong have been saying the same for years now.

We can't afford austerity right now.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/10/07/austerity-has-been-an-even-bigger-disaster-than-we-thought/

Guest


Guest

Austerity Even More Damaging to a Fragile Economy Than Previously Thought Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSVtIOzuMTRks5XWUO9JZ4-ASfuPeKsUfB3CpldeCFKnYlqG4DQ

*****SARCASTIC CHUCKLE*****

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6TcpfBHlbs

Smile

Guest


Guest

It's kinda funny what leftists can be taught to believe.

Is being able to carefully cut spending really worse than an unsustainable debt that the terms of which are dictated by others?

I know I know... down is up, less is more, bad is good. Tell me... what in the real world can be run like our govt?

Besides a ponsy scheme or other unethical endeavor.

2seaoat



Debt is only relevant in proportion to income. If austerity drops income, and the percentage of debt becomes worse, it is bad policy. If stimulus increases debt but increases income which in the end creates a lower ratio of debt o income, it is good policy. None of this is rocket science.

Guest


Guest

Wages are stagnant at best... tax decreases income... debt must be serviced. Debt can shift control of policy.

You're much closer to a rocket psychiatrist than scientist.

Guest


Guest

by 2seaoat Today at 5:25 pm
Debt is only relevant in proportion to income. If austerity drops income, and the percentage of debt becomes worse, it is bad policy. If stimulus increases debt but increases income which in the end creates a lower ratio of debt o income, it is good policy. None of this is rocket science.
-----
Obama's spent his ass off and what do we have to show for it? A part time economy where wages are 23% less than Pre recession times is where we are now. Employers are not hiring because of Obamacare or they are reducing staff and hours to skirt the law.

Spending more isn't the answer when we have 18 trillion in DEBT and constant annual deficits despite record levels of taxation.

2seaoat



Obama's spent his ass off

Not really. Do you even bother to look at Board's graphs?

Guest


Guest

Facts Seabass. Obama has almost doubled the national debt in just five years and nine months. Boards' graphs are propagandic tripe and they're "chock full of lies" spun for the low information crowd to chaw on and feel good about themselves and having voted for the worst POTUS ever.

2seaoat



Nope. This president has cut spending. Take 2009 out of the equation, and he has cut spending at a record level. The Bush stimulus and the 2009 Obama stimulus were not his fault. Since then record cuts in the deficit. Not propaganda. Simple facts. Near record successive months of economic growth. Facts. He comes into office with minus 7 GDP growth......not his making, nor was the stimulus a choice.

Guest


Guest

2seaoat wrote:Nope. This president has cut spending. Take 2009 out of the equation, and he has cut spending at a record level. The Bush stimulus and the 2009 Obama stimulus were not his fault. Since then record cuts in the deficit. Not propaganda. Simple facts. Near record successive months of economic growth. Facts. He comes into office with minus 7 GDP growth......not his making, nor was the stimulus a choice.

Then take 2009 out of the equation... that means you can't use the extraordinary increase to then claim the cuts.

You aren't even trying to be intellectually honest. Just mailing it in... huh? I guess you deserve to be lazy if you wish.

But don't think it isn't recognized for what it is... Dilbert.

2seaoat



Just the facts jack.....just the facts. President Obama has record deficit cuts, all the while stringing record economic growth....just the facts.

Floridatexan

Floridatexan

Guest


Guest

Gawd... you can't have it both ways. Don't you have any sense of fair play? What an asshole.

Guest


Guest

As usual FT can't add anything of worth to the discussion

Guest


Guest

Year...........Deficit

2014 $500,000,000,000+

2013 $680,276,000,000

2012 $1,089,193,000,000

2011 $1,296,791,000,000

2010 $1,294,204,000,000

2009 $1,415,724,000,000

2008 $454,798,000,000

2007 $161,527,000,000

2006 $248,197,000,000

2005 $318,746,000,000

2004 $412,845,000,000

2003 $377,139,000,000

2002 $157,791,000,000

Guest


Guest

2seaoat wrote:Just the facts jack.....just the facts.  President Obama has record deficit cuts, all the while stringing record economic growth....just the facts.

Again, there is a significant difference between the deficit and the debt. Deficit reduction, while a worthwhile goal, is not as important as the national debt, which has skyrocketed.  And it's not significant that some here compare the national debt to the nation GDP.  Unless the GDP can increase by double or triple, then it's not a significant factor compared to the national debt. Lately, GDP has been bumping along at between negative and 3 or 4%. Sure, current GDP is around $16T, but the national debt is at $18T, and it requires debt service - that means paying the interest on the money we have borrowed.  Currently debt service eats up about 6% of the annual budget.  It would be more if current interest rates werent so low.  Woe be to us if interest rates start to rise.



Last edited by colaguy on 10/8/2014, 2:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

Guest


Guest

The real national debt including unfunded liabilities and other off budget expenditure quadruples that amount.

Assuming we are able to service the debt. If not we will have austerity dictated to us like greece, portugal, spain... etc.

Markle

Markle

2seaoat wrote:Nope.  This president has cut spending.   Take 2009 out of the equation, and he has cut spending at a record level.   The Bush stimulus and the 2009 Obama stimulus were not his fault.   Since then record cuts in the deficit.  Not propaganda.  Simple facts.  Near record successive months of economic growth.  Facts.  He comes into office with minus 7 GDP growth......not his making, nor was the stimulus a choice.

Austerity Even More Damaging to a Fragile Economy Than Previously Thought Happy-jump-happy-animation-animated-smiley-emoticon-000360-large

2seaoat



By golly I think we had some graphs posted which confirmed what I said........now is Boards making it up........or can you not accept the utter failure of Republicans to make anything stick to the teflon President.

Sponsored content



Back to top  Message [Page 1 of 1]

Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum