Warren Buffett to Pay 3B in Burger King buy of Tim Hortons to Avoid US Taxes

colaguy wrote:Tax avoidance = Good

Tax evasion     = Bad

Bob wrote:

colaguy wrote:Tax avoidance = Good

Tax evasion     = Bad

Would you define tax avoidance as doing what is legal and tax evasion as doing what is illegal?

boards of FL wrote:For some added context...

Corporate taxes as a percentage of GDP (US is ranked 16th):

Country %Tax
Norway 10.4
Luxembourg 5.1
New Zealand 4.4
Korea 4.0
Czech Republic 3.6
Japan 3.4
Belgium 3.1
Denmark 3.0
Sweden 3.0
Canada 2.9
Switzerland 2.9
United Kingdom 2.9
Italy 2.9
Israel  (1) 2.8
Portugal 2.8
United States 2.6


Total taxes as a percentage of GDP (US is ranked 61st):

Country %Tax
Zimbabwe 49.3
Denmark 49
Belgium 46.8
Sweden 45.8
Cuba 44.8
France 44.6
Finland 43.6
Norway 43.6
Austria 43.4
Lesotho 42.9
Italy 42.6
Bosnia and Herzegovina 41.2
Germany 40.6
Iceland 40.4
Netherlands 39.8
Swaziland 39.8
Slovenia 39.3
Cyprus 39.2
Hungary 39.1
United Kingdom 39
Spain 37.3
Argentina 37.2
Portugal 37
Israel 36.8
Luxembourg 36.5
Czech Republic 36.3
Botswana 35.2
Malta 35.2
New Zealand 34.5
Brazil 34.4
Bulgaria 34.4
Serbia 34.1
Moldova 33.8
Mongolia 33.8
Poland 33.8
Barbados 32.6
Turkey 32.5
Estonia 32.3
Canada 32.2
Seychelles 32
Guyana 31.9
Ireland 30.8
Latvia 30.4
Dominica 30.3
Greece 30
Mexico 29.7
Russia 29.5
Slovakia 29.5
 Switzerland 29.4
Macedonia 29.3
Namibia 28.8
Japan 28.3
Romania 28.1
Ukraine 28.1
Montenegro 28
Trinidad and Tobago 28
Jamaica 27.2
Bolivia 27
Tonga 27
South Africa 26.9
United States (all levels) 26.9

colaguy wrote:

boards of FL wrote:For some added context...

Corporate taxes as a percentage of GDP (US is ranked 16th):

Country %Tax
Norway 10.4
Luxembourg 5.1
New Zealand 4.4
Korea 4.0
Czech Republic 3.6
Japan 3.4
Belgium 3.1
Denmark 3.0
Sweden 3.0
Canada 2.9
Switzerland 2.9
United Kingdom 2.9
Italy 2.9
Israel  (1) 2.8
Portugal 2.8
United States 2.6


Total taxes as a percentage of GDP (US is ranked 61st):

Country %Tax
Zimbabwe 49.3
Denmark 49
Belgium 46.8
Sweden 45.8
Cuba 44.8
France 44.6
Finland 43.6
Norway 43.6
Austria 43.4
Lesotho 42.9
Italy 42.6
Bosnia and Herzegovina 41.2
Germany 40.6
Iceland 40.4
Netherlands 39.8
Swaziland 39.8
Slovenia 39.3
Cyprus 39.2
Hungary 39.1
United Kingdom 39
Spain 37.3
Argentina 37.2
Portugal 37
Israel 36.8
Luxembourg 36.5
Czech Republic 36.3
Botswana 35.2
Malta 35.2
New Zealand 34.5
Brazil 34.4
Bulgaria 34.4
Serbia 34.1
Moldova 33.8
Mongolia 33.8
Poland 33.8
Barbados 32.6
Turkey 32.5
Estonia 32.3
Canada 32.2
Seychelles 32
Guyana 31.9
Ireland 30.8
Latvia 30.4
Dominica 30.3
Greece 30
Mexico 29.7
Russia 29.5
Slovakia 29.5
 Switzerland 29.4
Macedonia 29.3
Namibia 28.8
Japan 28.3
Romania 28.1
Ukraine 28.1
Montenegro 28
Trinidad and Tobago 28
Jamaica 27.2
Bolivia 27
Tonga 27
South Africa 26.9
United States (all levels) 26.9

This is fairly irrelevant to the issue.  

Since the US has a humongous economy, 35% of $15T is quite a bit more than 35% of $500B, such as Norway.

colaguy wrote:

This is fairly irrelevant to the issue.  

Since the US has a humongous economy, 35% of $15T is quite a bit more than 35% of $500B, such as Norway.

boards of FL wrote:

colaguy wrote:

boards of FL wrote:For some added context...

Corporate taxes as a percentage of GDP (US is ranked 16th):

Country %Tax
Norway 10.4
Luxembourg 5.1
New Zealand 4.4
Korea 4.0
Czech Republic 3.6
Japan 3.4
Belgium 3.1
Denmark 3.0
Sweden 3.0
Canada 2.9
Switzerland 2.9
United Kingdom 2.9
Italy 2.9
Israel  (1) 2.8
Portugal 2.8
United States 2.6


Total taxes as a percentage of GDP (US is ranked 61st):

Country %Tax
Zimbabwe 49.3
Denmark 49
Belgium 46.8
Sweden 45.8
Cuba 44.8
France 44.6
Finland 43.6
Norway 43.6
Austria 43.4
Lesotho 42.9
Italy 42.6
Bosnia and Herzegovina 41.2
Germany 40.6
Iceland 40.4
Netherlands 39.8
Swaziland 39.8
Slovenia 39.3
Cyprus 39.2
Hungary 39.1
United Kingdom 39
Spain 37.3
Argentina 37.2
Portugal 37
Israel 36.8
Luxembourg 36.5
Czech Republic 36.3
Botswana 35.2
Malta 35.2
New Zealand 34.5
Brazil 34.4
Bulgaria 34.4
Serbia 34.1
Moldova 33.8
Mongolia 33.8
Poland 33.8
Barbados 32.6
Turkey 32.5
Estonia 32.3
Canada 32.2
Seychelles 32
Guyana 31.9
Ireland 30.8
Latvia 30.4
Dominica 30.3
Greece 30
Mexico 29.7
Russia 29.5
Slovakia 29.5
 Switzerland 29.4
Macedonia 29.3
Namibia 28.8
Japan 28.3
Romania 28.1
Ukraine 28.1
Montenegro 28
Trinidad and Tobago 28
Jamaica 27.2
Bolivia 27
Tonga 27
South Africa 26.9
United States (all levels) 26.9

This is fairly irrelevant to the issue.  

Since the US has a humongous economy, 35% of $15T is quite a bit more than 35% of $500B, such as Norway.

Right after saying that using %'s as a means of comparison is irrelevant, you go on to explain why using %'s as a means of comparison is relevant.

We obviously would not compare nominal tax receipts because - as you point out - GDP varies between country.  That is why we use %'s instead.  %'s are the relevant means of comparison whereas nominal values are not.

I bet you struggle with concepts like "per capita", don't you?  Is it just your nature to try to belittle those whose opinion differs from yours?

knothead wrote:  Of all the other nations who have 'lower' tax rates how many have the burden of defending the world? Aircraft carrier fleets get mighty expensive yet the US maintains them at ready and everyone benefits but US corporations want to jump ship and leave? It's a Republican mind set . . . . . if it's legal why not?

colaguy wrote:

knothead wrote:  Of all the other nations who have 'lower' tax rates how many have the burden of defending the world? Aircraft carrier fleets get mighty expensive yet the US maintains them at ready and everyone benefits but US corporations want to jump ship and leave? It's a Republican mind set . . . . . if it's legal why not?

What exactly is your reasoning that US corporations are opposed to the US defense program, and what does lowering the US corporate tax rate have to do with it?

".....if it's legal why not"  So, is it "unpatriotic of you or me to claim a deduction for charitable contributions or mortgage interest?  How about the deduction for IRA contributions?  No? Well these are part of the same tax code that the US Congress put into place.  The same tax code that allows US businesses to operate overseas to avoid paying US taxes.

I have yet to hear a cogent argument against lowering the US corp tax rate.

colaguy wrote:Please explain why it is relevant that Norway’s corporate tax % = 10.4% of its GDP, and the US corporate tax % = 2.6% of its GDP.

knothead wrote:

colaguy wrote:

knothead wrote:  Of all the other nations who have 'lower' tax rates how many have the burden of defending the world? Aircraft carrier fleets get mighty expensive yet the US maintains them at ready and everyone benefits but US corporations want to jump ship and leave? It's a Republican mind set . . . . . if it's legal why not?

What exactly is your reasoning that US corporations are opposed to the US defense program, and what does lowering the US corporate tax rate have to do with it?

".....if it's legal why not"  So, is it "unpatriotic of you or me to claim a deduction for charitable contributions or mortgage interest?  How about the deduction for IRA contributions?  No? Well these are part of the same tax code that the US Congress put into place.  The same tax code that allows US businesses to operate overseas to avoid paying US taxes.

I have yet to hear a cogent argument against lowering the US corp tax rate.

I agree with lowering the corporate tax rates colaguy what I did not understand reading your comment was the narrative of everyone claims deductions and pays the very least amount possible versus legally abandoning your country because it would improve the bottom line.  Two vastly different narratives . . .    

boards of FL wrote:

colaguy wrote:Please explain why it is relevant that Norway’s corporate tax % = 10.4% of its GDP, and the US corporate tax % = 2.6% of its GDP.

Well, this is a discussion about corporate tax burden, and it has been suggested that American companies feel the heaviest burden of any nation on earth due to the fact that "Our corporate tax rate is the highest in the industrialized world. That's a problem.", as Joanimaroni put it.  

If we're going to compare corporate tax burdens across various countries, we first need to sync them all to some common denominator - Corporate taxes as a % of GDP.  I'm amazed that you were somehow able to make it through high school and this be a foreign concept to you, as I'm pretty sure things like finding a lowest common denominator before comparing or adding fractions is a concept that is taught in elementary school.

Imagine seeing two people argue:

Person A:  I say that 7/10 is a bigger number than 4/8.

Person B:  What?!?!  I say that 4/8 is a bigger number than 7/10.

Elementary school math shows us that we can solve this dispute by finding a lowest common denominator and then comparing.  

7/10 can be converted to 28/40 by multiplying by 4/4, or, 1.

4/8 can be converted to 20/40 by multiplying by 5/5, or 1.  

So now we are essentially comparing 28/40 to 20/40, and we can conclude Person A is correct.  We know this because we synced these two things to some common denominator that allowed us to make direct comparisons.  

If we're going to compare corporate tax burdens across countries that have varying economies and marginal tax rates, the most straightforward approach is to convert each country's tax burden to some common denominator or expression - such as corporate taxes paid as a % of GDP.  This allows us to state each country's tax burden as a function relative to its overall economy - which allows us to make direct comparisons.

colaguy wrote:Again, is it just your nature to try to belittle those whose opinion differs from yours?

colaguy wrote:

knothead wrote:

colaguy wrote:

knothead wrote:  Of all the other nations who have 'lower' tax rates how many have the burden of defending the world? Aircraft carrier fleets get mighty expensive yet the US maintains them at ready and everyone benefits but US corporations want to jump ship and leave? It's a Republican mind set . . . . . if it's legal why not?

What exactly is your reasoning that US corporations are opposed to the US defense program, and what does lowering the US corporate tax rate have to do with it?

".....if it's legal why not"  So, is it "unpatriotic of you or me to claim a deduction for charitable contributions or mortgage interest?  How about the deduction for IRA contributions?  No? Well these are part of the same tax code that the US Congress put into place.  The same tax code that allows US businesses to operate overseas to avoid paying US taxes.

I have yet to hear a cogent argument against lowering the US corp tax rate.

I agree with lowering the corporate tax rates colaguy what I did not understand reading your comment was the narrative of everyone claims deductions and pays the very least amount possible versus legally abandoning your country because it would improve the bottom line.  Two vastly different narratives . . .    

NP Knot.  I understand.  What I don't understand is the mindset of some who say that following the US Tax Code and the provisions put into it by the US Congress is somehow unpatriotic.  I merely tried to point out that most of us don't consider it unpatriotic to use the mortgage interest expense deduction that is part of the same US Tax Code.  If the US Congress didn't intend for people to use it then it should change it.  Similarly, if they didn't intend for US companies to use the Tax Code and move its  company to another company, then the Congress should change it.

colaguy wrote:

knothead wrote:

colaguy wrote:

knothead wrote:  Of all the other nations who have 'lower' tax rates how many have the burden of defending the world? Aircraft carrier fleets get mighty expensive yet the US maintains them at ready and everyone benefits but US corporations want to jump ship and leave? It's a Republican mind set . . . . . if it's legal why not?

What exactly is your reasoning that US corporations are opposed to the US defense program, and what does lowering the US corporate tax rate have to do with it?

".....if it's legal why not"  So, is it "unpatriotic of you or me to claim a deduction for charitable contributions or mortgage interest?  How about the deduction for IRA contributions?  No? Well these are part of the same tax code that the US Congress put into place.  The same tax code that allows US businesses to operate overseas to avoid paying US taxes.

I have yet to hear a cogent argument against lowering the US corp tax rate.

I agree with lowering the corporate tax rates colaguy what I did not understand reading your comment was the narrative of everyone claims deductions and pays the very least amount possible versus legally abandoning your country because it would improve the bottom line.  Two vastly different narratives . . .    

NP Knot.  I understand.  What I don't understand is the mindset of some who say that following the US Tax Code and the provisions put into it by the US Congress is somehow unpatriotic.  I merely tried to point out that most of us don't consider it unpatriotic to use the mortgage interest expense deduction that is part of the same US Tax Code.  If the US Congress didn't intend for people to use it then it should change it.  Similarly, if they didn't intend for US companies to use the Tax Code and move its  company to another company, then the Congress should change it.