The Universe

ImpishScoundrel wrote:

Bob wrote:

TEOTWAWKI wrote:My question is how self awareness developed.

It's a great question. One of the most interesting and fascinating things we can ever wonder about.

But, believe it or not (and I know you won't), not every question we ask requires that we invent an answer. If we had answers to everything about our existence, we wouldn't be us. We would be god. And I don't know about you but if there's one thing I know I'm not, it's that I'm not god.
I kind of like being a human being instead and not having all the answers. Because I think in the final analysis that's part of what it means to be a human being. Not having all the answers.

It is a great question. And, it's questions like those which make for wonderful dialectics through philosophy, which I suck at yet love, and logical reason. The answer is not as relevant as is the exploration through argument. It's the killjoys who are unwaveringly devoted to the beliefs and teachings of another, instead of believing what their own minds can come up with, that usually ruins these types of discussions.

You can believe in creation and yet explore evolution. You can believe in science and still explore philosophy. You can believe in the tangible and ponder the unimaginable. All you have to do is take the blinders off.

Bob wrote:

Damaged Eagle wrote: Especially the atheists and their strict beliefs about science being the answer to all the questions about the universe.

Before I came to this forum I participated in another forum. It was a movie forum.
And the movie "The Time Machine" sparked a debate between me on one side and a professional physicist and a physics buff on the other side. The debate last six months believe it or not.I took up the debate after the physicist posted this comment: "science has now discovered about 80% of all the fundamental knowledge there is to know". And then physics buff posted to agree with that.

I wish I could link you to that thread because I think you would enjoy reading it.
But it was a movie forum hosted by a home theater equipment business and after six months they decided it wasn't conducive to their doing business so they abruptly deleted the whole thing. I put six months of my life into that writing and it was by far the best writing I have ever done. And then someone with the push of a keystroke made it all just instantly disappear.
But I'm not bitter about that. Because participating in that thread is what taught me most of what I know about communicating with writing.

Science will never reveal the nature of existence anymore than religion will. Both are really nothing more than constructs of human intellect. And both are limited to that.
And of course both science and religion are in denial of that reality.

Bob wrote:But please don't get me wrong. I am fully convinced that both religion and science (and philosophy) have their place in human society. In fact I actually believe that both religion and science are a part of our very nature.
Both act as the vehicles for that "exploration" which ImpishScoundrel articulated so well in his post.
And I'm all for that exploration and I'm all for continually asking the questions.

It might seen a little odd for someone to say he's all for asking the questions after he's already said there is no final answer at the end.
That's part of the reason our reality is so difficult for so many of us to accept.
But it really doesn't have to be. We make it so much harder than it is. We've always done that.
But once you begin to realize what it means to be a human being and acknowledge that we do have limitations, it actually gets easier to accept that reality and make the most of what we actually are, not what we wish to be.
Denial of reality is truly a lot more difficult thing to live with. Thousands of years of human civilization has produced more than enough evidence of that.

boards of FL wrote:

Ghost_Rider1 wrote:One one hand you have the Bible saying one thing and on the other the scientist.

Or, put another way, on one hand you have cave dwellers with whatever knowledge they possessed thousands of years ago, and then you have highly educated people of today, with all of their powerful instruments and technology.

Cave dwellers from thousands of years ago vs scientists of today.

boards of FL wrote:

TEOTWAWKI wrote:Even with all the materials in place I have never seen a house build itself.....

But seeing an unexplained supernatural, all-powerful being create a universe, on the other hand....

Damaged Eagle wrote:Believing that a universe size black hole simply decided one day to explode into what we call the Big Bang thereby defying Newton's Three Laws Of Motion on the other hand...

*****CHUCKLE*****

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erL15K5eRnI

boards of FL wrote:

Damaged Eagle wrote:Believing that a universe size black hole simply decided one day to explode into what we call the Big Bang thereby defying Newton's Three Laws Of Motion on the other hand...

*****CHUCKLE*****

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erL15K5eRnI

Well, we know that the universe is expanding. Where does logic lead us when we are armed with that fact?

Damaged Eagle wrote:Up a creek without a paddle until you can explain how a stable state black hole (body at rest) went to an expanding universe (body in motion) for only the last 15 billion years.

boards of FL wrote:

Damaged Eagle wrote:Up a creek without a paddle until you can explain how a stable state black hole (body at rest) went to an expanding universe (body in motion) for only the last 15 billion years.

Stable state black hole? I mentioned nothing of the sort. Again, we know that the universe is expanding. Where does logic lead us when armed with that fact? If something expands as time moves forward, what happens as time moves backward?

Damaged Eagle wrote:If it moves backwards in time it will contract until it reaches is Schwarzschild radius...

TEOTWAWKI wrote:We are so puffed up like we know it all but just examining a few facts should take away a lot of the pomp. Without the Moon we would have no life on earth due to the necessity of a tidal change for the cycles of life that provide food for the whole chain. Also our moon is the biggest moon any planet has and actually may be hollow or even metal....reason..it rings when you crash something into it...Also the layer of air we breath easily without supplemental oxygen is only about 2 miles deep on average with the oceans we think are so massive ...well it's like a scientist once told me..take a globe a foot in diameter put it in a freezer take it out cold, breath on it and the depth of the water vapor put there by your breath is the relative average depth of the ocean. Life exists for us in a very narrow range of temperatures too hot we die, too cold we die. Those temperatures and gas mixtures in our atmosphere have stayed relatively stable for all this time...and the water we drink has been recycled over and over along with all the other renewal cycles needed for life to continue.....and there is SO much more required to keep us going.....yeah it's just an accident ...

boards of FL wrote:

TEOTWAWKI wrote:We are so puffed up like we know it all but just examining a few facts should take away a lot of the pomp. Without the Moon we would have no life on earth due to the necessity of a tidal change for the cycles of life that provide food for the whole chain. Also our moon is the biggest moon any planet has and actually may be hollow or even metal....reason..it rings when you crash something into it...Also the layer of air we breath easily without supplemental oxygen is only about 2 miles deep on average with the oceans we think are so massive ...well it's like a scientist once told me..take a globe a foot in diameter put it in a freezer take it out cold, breath on it and the depth of the water vapor put there by your breath is the relative average depth of the ocean. Life exists for us in a very narrow range of temperatures too hot we die, too cold we die. Those temperatures and gas mixtures in our atmosphere have stayed relatively stable for all this time...and the water we drink has been recycled over and over along with all the other renewal cycles needed for life to continue.....and there is SO much more required to keep us going.....yeah it's just an accident ...

Not an accident at all. Just playing the odds. Think of how large the universe is. Think of the billions upon billions of galaxies and then the billions upon billions of stars that make them up. Is it really that improbable that at least one planet orbiting one of those stars would possess the necessary conditions to sustain life?

TEOTWAWKI wrote:naw and you guys also believe that monkeys on typewriters could produce the Encyclopedia Britannica given enough time....now that is faith...

boards of FL wrote:

TEOTWAWKI wrote:naw and you guys also believe that monkeys on typewriters could produce the Encyclopedia Britannica given enough time....now that is faith...

I don't think you fully understand what you're talking about with the typewriting monkeys comment.

TEOTWAWKI wrote:We are so puffed up like we know it all but just examining a few facts should take away a lot of the pomp. Without the Moon we would have no life on earth due to the necessity of a tidal change for the cycles of life that provide food for the whole chain. Also our moon is the biggest moon any planet has and actually may be hollow or even metal....reason..it rings when you crash something into it...Also the layer of air we breath easily without supplemental oxygen is only about 2 miles deep on average with the oceans we think are so massive ...well it's like a scientist once told me..take a globe a foot in diameter put it in a freezer take it out cold, breath on it and the depth of the water vapor put there by your breath is the relative average depth of the ocean. Life exists for us in a very narrow range of temperatures too hot we die, too cold we die. Those temperatures and gas mixtures in our atmosphere have stayed relatively stable for all this time...and the water we drink has been recycled over and over along with all the other renewal cycles needed for life to continue.....and there is SO much more required to keep us going.....yeah it's just an accident ...

TEOTWAWKI wrote:Found this....

So you’re 2,059 times more likely to kill yourself than die at the hand of a terrorist.

Just wanted to share...

now back to the subject.

You narrowed the choices not me....

We could be living in a computer simulation for all I know. God may be something we don't have the intellect to understand. Life at times seems pointless and repetitive but yet there is so much we are "blessed" with if we want to learn. It's a choice Bob. The choice is Joy or Despair. God works in that for me I see what I believe is evidence of his love. I have the given ability to enjoy with my senses all the things this world provides. I guess what I find disturbing from the atheist group is their lack of gratitude to whatever gave us and made us able to enjoy our lives.

Now you might go on about all the suffering and horror this life slams people with but THAT'S LIFE......

If we are just the product of aliens dumping their trash on their way through the universe then where did they come from ?...

Go listen to Louis Armstrong Bob...we are created to even enjoy music....

TEOTWAWKI wrote:Bob that book tells us it is up to every man to work out his own salvation so my way may not work for every one. You have often gone on about how god kills kids and stuff so that is why I mentioned that I don't actually know either Bob but I lean closer to. A benevolent Creator than some. Guess that puts me in the cowardly camp clinging to my Bible and guns but so be it That's my choice.

boards of FL wrote:

Damaged Eagle wrote:If it moves backwards in time it will contract until it reaches is Schwarzschild radius...

Correct. Logic dictates that as we move backward in time, the universe contracts. Follow that line of reason to its logical conclusion and you basically arrive at the idea that everything began expanding from some single point at some point in time. Beyond that, we can only guess. No evidence suggests any involvement of some sort of magical, supernatural being. And many phenomena that we used to attribute to such beings we have since understood through scientific discovery. This trend will continue into perpetuity, and religion will continue to be painted into a smaller and smaller corner.

"But what caused the universe to start expanding?" I don't know, and I'm comfortable with that. I feel no need to fill in the gaps with old fairy-tales.

Bob wrote:

TEOTWAWKI wrote:Found this....

So you’re 2,059 times more likely to kill yourself than die at the hand of a terrorist.

Just wanted to share...

now back to the subject.

You narrowed the choices not me....

We could be living in a computer simulation for all I know. God may be something we don't have the intellect to understand. Life at times seems pointless and repetitive but yet there is so much we are "blessed" with if we want to learn. It's a choice Bob. The choice is Joy or Despair. God works in that for me I see what I believe is evidence of his love. I have the given ability to enjoy with my senses all the things this world provides. I guess what I find disturbing from the atheist group is their lack of gratitude to whatever gave us and made us able to enjoy our lives.

Now you might go on about all the suffering and horror this life slams people with but THAT'S LIFE......

If we are just the product of aliens dumping their trash on their way through the universe then where did they come from ?...

Go listen to Louis Armstrong Bob...we are created to even enjoy music....

Well firstly, every suicide I've ever heard of offed themselves because they themselves made the choice to do it. But I don't think any of the 3000 people who died in the World Trade Center made that choice for themselves and instead that choice was made for them.

Now back to the subject.

"It's a choice Bob. The choice is Joy or Despair. God works in that for me I see what I believe is evidence of his love. I have the given ability to enjoy with my senses all the things this world provides. I guess what I find disturbing from the atheist group is their lack of gratitude to whatever gave us and made us able to enjoy our lives."

I'm very happy for you that your belief in God provides joy and happiness for you.
Since I'm not an atheist I can't speak for them. But I know atheists who are joyous and happy too. And they don't live in a state of despair.
So I don't understand why belief in God is the only way to achieve joy and happiness and avoid despair.

Yes I might "go on about all the suffering and horror this life slams people with". But since I don't do that I fail to understand why you even made mention of that.

And if we are "the product of aliens dumping their trash on the way through the universe", I have no idea where they came from. Just as I have no idea where a "God" came from.

And finally, no I don't limit any choices. When I say "I don't know" that makes the choices pretty much limitless.

boards of FL wrote:

TEOTWAWKI wrote:We are so puffed up like we know it all but just examining a few facts should take away a lot of the pomp. Without the Moon we would have no life on earth due to the necessity of a tidal change for the cycles of life that provide food for the whole chain. Also our moon is the biggest moon any planet has and actually may be hollow or even metal....reason..it rings when you crash something into it...Also the layer of air we breath easily without supplemental oxygen is only about 2 miles deep on average with the oceans we think are so massive ...well it's like a scientist once told me..take a globe a foot in diameter put it in a freezer take it out cold, breath on it and the depth of the water vapor put there by your breath is the relative average depth of the ocean. Life exists for us in a very narrow range of temperatures too hot we die, too cold we die. Those temperatures and gas mixtures in our atmosphere have stayed relatively stable for all this time...and the water we drink has been recycled over and over along with all the other renewal cycles needed for life to continue.....and there is SO much more required to keep us going.....yeah it's just an accident ...

Not an accident at all. Just playing the odds. Think of how large the universe is. Think of the billions upon billions of galaxies and then the billions upon billions of stars that make them up. Is it really that improbable that at least one planet orbiting one of those stars would possess the necessary conditions to sustain life?

Damaged Eagle wrote:

Look how small the universe is at only thirty billion light years in diameter which is an insignificant number when compared against infinity.