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Pensacola Discussion Forum » Politics » Chinese Land First Jet on its Aircraft Carrier

Chinese Land First Jet on its Aircraft Carrier

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ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/25/world/asia/china-aircraft-carrier-landing/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Chinese Land First Jet on its Aircraft Carrier 12112510

We can't even defeat the World's Muslims--How will we ever defeat the Yellow hordes? I knew Bush made a mistake in invading Iraq....All the Chinese needed to do was stay quiet and watch us beat our military up fighting against fanatical Muslims. The way things are going, by the time they have their carrier force up and running, we likey won't be able to even afford aircraft carriers.

http://www.best-electric-barbecue-grills.com

Guest


Guest

http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/06/05/us_reopening_world_war_ii_bases_in_pacific

Looks like the US is reopening long abandoned airbases in the pacific.

Guest


Guest

ZVUGKTUBM wrote:. The way things are going, by the time they have their carrier force up and running, we likey won't be able to even afford aircraft carriers.[/color]

Actually you are wrong. After 10+ years of active combat the U.S. has the most capable combat ready force in the world. The Chinese have a LONG way to go before they have an active carrier force. One plane (if it wasn't a staged event) does not constitute a viable carrier force. But yes, Iraq was a big mistake although 20-20 hindsight makes it easier to say that.

knothead

knothead

First, it was inevitable that China would develop and invest in a carrier fleet but I agree with nochain that they are light years from having a viable well trained naval fleet comparable to the USA.
Second, why would an emerging power like China not invest in their military to compete with other world powers? I certainly am not shocked as they are investing in their international presence and prestige.
Lastly, I'm not overly concerned that they will overtake our military capabilities on the high seas anytime soon.

Guest


Guest

This is what a real carrier operation looks like:

Chinese Land First Jet on its Aircraft Carrier Med-might-07-2012

Guest


Guest

knothead wrote:First, it was inevitable that China would develop and invest in a carrier fleet but I agree with nochain that they are light years from having a viable well trained naval fleet comparable to the USA.
Second, why would an emerging power like China not invest in their military to compete with other world powers? I certainly am not shocked as they are investing in their international presence and prestige.
Lastly, I'm not overly concerned that they will overtake our military capabilities on the high seas anytime soon.


Let's hope that there is a commitment to our military rather than weakening it and allowing China and others to close the gap...

2seaoat



Investing in vulnerable carrier groups which could be neutralized in hours by the use of tactical nuclear weapons.......then who makes the decision on a second strike to unleash strategic nuclear weapons on the mainland of the country who neutralized our carrier groups?

Carrier groups and the marginot line have something in common.......they both played a significant role in defense at one point in history......but in another time..........well we shall see.

knothead

knothead

2seaoat wrote:Investing in vulnerable carrier groups which could be neutralized in hours by the use of tactical nuclear weapons.......then who makes the decision on a second strike to unleash strategic nuclear weapons on the mainland of the country who neutralized our carrier groups?

Carrier groups and the marginot line have something in common.......they both played a significant role in defense at one point in history......but in another time..........well we shall see.

*******************************************

That's why we have a submarine fleet with strategic nuclear capability prowling the world's waters 24/7 . . . .

2seaoat



Our secondary strike capabilities are certain......however, are we willing to use strategic nuclear weapons on an enemy who has neutralized our carrier groups with tactical nuclear weapons......and here is the key......also has second strike strategic capabilities......?

A nation as small as North Korea could neutralize a carrier group in the seventh fleet using tactical nuclear weapons on even their crappy missles....but what if that nation had planted eight nuclear weapons in major metropolitan areas........and just for show planted one in the grand canyon....which they ignited at the same time they neutralized our carrier group.

A true second strike capability requires the ability to deliver even after a successful first strike. So we vaporize north Korea and its entire population.....do you think they will not be able to execute their second strike capability? The post WWII paradigm is not the strategic model of the nation state.....it is far more sinister, and 1940 technology is a genie which has not remained in the bottle. A carrier group is great when dealing with those who do not have second strike capability.....but a nation with second strike capability, and tactical weapons could neutralize our projection of tactical power in 24hours.........so why spend 25% of your GDP on something that does not really protect your nation, when you simply have to perfect tactical nuclear weapons, and perfect a second strike capability...........tell me who will win this battle if we continue to flush a quarter of our GDP down the rabbit hole of bigger and better carriers......when we already enjoy a 10-1 advantage over our nearest competitor......our paradigm is outdated.

Guest


Guest

2seaoat wrote:O

A nation as small as North Korea could neutralize a carrier group in the seventh fleet using tactical nuclear weapons on even their crappy missles....but what if that nation had planted eight nuclear weapons in major metropolitan areas........and just for show planted one in the grand canyon....which they ignited at the same time they neutralized our carrier group.our paradigm is outdated.

"What if's" don't cut it in the real world of global politics when in reality the likelihood of a nuclear strike at some point in the future by anyone other than Iran or radical Islamists who have captured Pakistani weapons is slim. You can't let the world go by while anticipating something that will probably never happen. Instead, a major nation such as the U.S. must continue to maintain forces sufficient to protect our global interests, which are many. Aircraft carrier battle groups are not so easy to kill, particularly with rudimentary missiles - nuclear or not. If you feel we need to stand our Navy down to "save money" you might as well go all in and say it is time for the U.S. to become a true isolationist nation.

knothead

knothead

The description used in your scenario seems unlikely but the Pentagon plans for unlikely as well as the likely. A rogue government who is sinister enough to plunge themselves into certain demise plays into the narrative that Armegedon (sp) is possible although not probable. You seem to be making a case to scale down our carrier fleets because we are flushing 25% of our GDP down that rabbit hole seems dismissive of the obvious advantage our carrier fleets give the West. Currently, we depend on them to intimidate Iran to keep the Straits of Hormuz open for commerce (oil) as there two carriers there right at this moment on station and their presence cannot be replaced with an exchange for second strike capability or at least that's my opinion. The placement of eight nuclear weapons in eight metropolitan areas and one in the Grand Canyon sounds like something out of a fictional movie because I have confidence in our intelligence community . . . . so it is just that . . . fiction.

It has long been my belief that America's Achilles's heel has been playing out in the hell hole called Afghanistan. The strategy is to simply dare America to invade (as we have) and fight the war with a long view to slowly drain our Treasury and our blood. We take defeat very poorly and are not good at admitting mistakes resulting in a drawn out military presence long after we should have gone. Actually this has played out right before our eyes in Iraq and Afghanistan and this does not take into account the other unstable nations in that region that have one thing in common . . . . hatred for America. Peace through strength, in my view, requires a robust carrier presence and a continued investment in our strategic capability along with becoming wiser in picking our fights, ending them decisively and get the hell out.

Guest


Guest

knothead wrote:The description used in your scenario seems unlikely but the Pentagon plans for unlikely as well as the likely. A rogue government who is sinister enough to plunge themselves into certain demise plays into the narrative that Armegedon (sp) is possible although not probable. You seem to be making a case to scale down our carrier fleets because we are flushing 25% of our GDP down that rabbit hole seems dismissive of the obvious advantage our carrier fleets give the West. Currently, we depend on them to intimidate Iran to keep the Straits of Hormuz open for commerce (oil) as there two carriers there right at this moment on station and their presence cannot be replaced with an exchange for second strike capability or at least that's my opinion. The placement of eight nuclear weapons in eight metropolitan areas and one in the Grand Canyon sounds like something out of a fictional movie because I have confidence in our intelligence community . . . . so it is just that . . . fiction.



It has long been my belief that America's Achilles's heel has been playing out in the hell hole called Afghanistan. The strategy is to simply dare America to invade (as we have) and fight the war with a long view to slowly drain our Treasury and our blood. We take defeat very poorly and are not good at admitting mistakes resulting in a drawn out military presence long after we should have gone. Actually this has played out right before our eyes in Iraq and Afghanistan and this does not take into account the other unstable nations in that region that have one thing in common . . . . hatred for America. Peace through strength, in my view, requires a robust carrier presence and a continued investment in our strategic capability along with becoming wiser in picking our fights, ending them decisively and get the hell out.
Agree....throughout our history when this nation overstays/nation builds there is a problem...can't say it any better...do the job and GET THE HELL OUT...when Washington DC gets involved there are problems...let the professionals do their jobs...

2seaoat



If my example was too theoretical......I think that is fair.....so lets go practical. China sends jets into Tawain and bombs their defensive positions. The 7th fleet moves into defensive position and honoring our treaty takes out a significant number of the Chinese air force. China wipes out our 7th fleet with 6 tactical nuclear weapons.

First, does China have a second strike capability? Second, are we going to retaliate using tactical nuclear weapons, or will we use strategic nuclear weapons? In the 1960s and early 1970s our European bases were in fact equipped with tactical nuclear weapons which were certainly part of our response to a blitzkrieg of Soviet tanks into western Europe. In the late 60s and early 70s as it became more common to talk about tactical use of nuclear weapons......the whole second strike debate became more unstable because what was the second strike on tactical nuclear weapons?

Our Carrier groups work great on Somalian Pirates, Libya, or even an Iran, but what if we are dealing with China......do you think that our carrier presence and our navy mean the same thing in 2013 that it did in 1945.....I think that our strategy of centralizing American power around carrier groups is flawed, and have believed that since the early 1970s.

Guest


Guest

ZVUGKTUBM wrote:http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/25/world/asia/china-aircraft-carrier-landing/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Chinese Land First Jet on its Aircraft Carrier 12112510

We can't even defeat the World's Muslims--How will we ever defeat the Yellow hordes? I knew Bush made a mistake in invading Iraq....All the Chinese needed to do was stay quiet and watch us beat our military up fighting against fanatical Muslims. The way things are going, by the time they have their carrier force up and running, we likey won't be able to even afford aircraft carriers.



Dude,

You claim to have been a PILOT in the Marines and post this sort of tripe? The US was landing aircraft on carriers in the teens of the last century. What do you imagine the sortie rate will be considering the configuration of this AC and it's fubar RAMP to launch planes that allows just one take off at a time? This is ONE carrier that they have yet to master operations off of and you claim the end of the world. Thank GOD you don't work in Intel or any part of the military that collects intelligence because your claims would get you laughed out of the room even by the most junior of intel analysts at the non-rate level of the military.

Guest


Guest

2seaoat wrote:

Our Carrier groups work great on Somalian Pirates, Libya, or even an Iran, but what if we are dealing with China......do you think that our carrier presence and our navy mean the same thing in 2013 that it did in 1945.....I think that our strategy of centralizing American power around carrier groups is flawed, and have believed that since the early 1970s.



Seaoat,

That was the first ever plane landings and launches on a carrier by the Chinks. They are still YEARS away from being operational in use of this item.

Guest


Guest

2seaoat wrote:Investing in vulnerable carrier groups which could be neutralized in hours by the use of tactical nuclear weapons.......then who makes the decision on a second strike to unleash strategic nuclear weapons on the mainland of the country who neutralized our carrier groups?

Carrier groups and the marginot line have something in common.......they both played a significant role in defense at one point in history......but in another time..........well we shall see.



You have to find our carriers to defeat them........

2seaoat



You have to find our carriers to defeat them........


Do you think for a second that the Russians and Chinese do not know where everyone of our carriers are at this moment.........We used to have an invisible second strike capability in our nuclear sub fleet.....but even now those are being tracked......now if my study of these issues for the last 40 years....I have missed something....like a stealth spray you can spray over a carrier.....I think I would disagree.

ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

PACEDOG#1 wrote:
ZVUGKTUBM wrote:http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/25/world/asia/china-aircraft-carrier-landing/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Chinese Land First Jet on its Aircraft Carrier 12112510

We can't even defeat the World's Muslims--How will we ever defeat the Yellow hordes? I knew Bush made a mistake in invading Iraq....All the Chinese needed to do was stay quiet and watch us beat our military up fighting against fanatical Muslims. The way things are going, by the time they have their carrier force up and running, we likey won't be able to even afford aircraft carriers.



Dude,

You claim to have been a PILOT in the Marines and post this sort of tripe? The US was landing aircraft on carriers in the teens of the last century. What do you imagine the sortie rate will be considering the configuration of this AC and it's fubar RAMP to launch planes that allows just one take off at a time? This is ONE carrier that they have yet to master operations off of and you claim the end of the world. Thank GOD you don't work in Intel or any part of the military that collects intelligence because your claims would get you laughed out of the room even by the most junior of intel analysts at the non-rate level of the military.

Dude I was a pilot in the Marines. I was a Captain and had over 2,000 flight hours before you got your first stripe after boot camp. If you were at Camp Pendleton or on Okinawa in the 1985-1986 time frame, I probably flew your sorry arse around.

I know full well I posted tripe, and half of it was meant to be tongue-in-cheek boob-bait to see what other people would post on this thread. Obviously it worked, as you fell for the bait. Rolling Eyes

http://www.best-electric-barbecue-grills.com

gulfbeachbandit

gulfbeachbandit

ZVUGKTUBM wrote:
PACEDOG#1 wrote:
ZVUGKTUBM wrote:http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/25/world/asia/china-aircraft-carrier-landing/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Chinese Land First Jet on its Aircraft Carrier 12112510

We can't even defeat the World's Muslims--How will we ever defeat the Yellow hordes? I knew Bush made a mistake in invading Iraq....All the Chinese needed to do was stay quiet and watch us beat our military up fighting against fanatical Muslims. The way things are going, by the time they have their carrier force up and running, we likey won't be able to even afford aircraft carriers.



Dude,

You claim to have been a PILOT in the Marines and post this sort of tripe? The US was landing aircraft on carriers in the teens of the last century. What do you imagine the sortie rate will be considering the configuration of this AC and it's fubar RAMP to launch planes that allows just one take off at a time? This is ONE carrier that they have yet to master operations off of and you claim the end of the world. Thank GOD you don't work in Intel or any part of the military that collects intelligence because your claims would get you laughed out of the room even by the most junior of intel analysts at the non-rate level of the military.

Dude I was a pilot in the Marines. I was a Captain and had over 2,000 flight hours before you got your first stripe after boot camp. If you were at Camp Pendleton or on Okinawa in the 1985-1986 time frame, I probably flew your sorry arse around.

I know full well I posted tripe, and half of it was meant to be tongue-in-cheek boob-bait to see what other people would post on this thread. Obviously it worked, as you fell for the bait. Rolling Eyes

Whisper alley commando?

Guest


Guest

ZVUGKTUBM wrote:
PACEDOG#1 wrote:
ZVUGKTUBM wrote:http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/25/world/asia/china-aircraft-carrier-landing/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Chinese Land First Jet on its Aircraft Carrier 12112510

We can't even defeat the World's Muslims--How will we ever defeat the Yellow hordes? I knew Bush made a mistake in invading Iraq....All the Chinese needed to do was stay quiet and watch us beat our military up fighting against fanatical Muslims. The way things are going, by the time they have their carrier force up and running, we likey won't be able to even afford aircraft carriers.



Dude,

You claim to have been a PILOT in the Marines and post this sort of tripe? The US was landing aircraft on carriers in the teens of the last century. What do you imagine the sortie rate will be considering the configuration of this AC and it's fubar RAMP to launch planes that allows just one take off at a time? This is ONE carrier that they have yet to master operations off of and you claim the end of the world. Thank GOD you don't work in Intel or any part of the military that collects intelligence because your claims would get you laughed out of the room even by the most junior of intel analysts at the non-rate level of the military.

Dude I was a pilot in the Marines. I was a Captain and had over 2,000 flight hours before you got your first stripe after boot camp. If you were at Camp Pendleton or on Okinawa in the 1985-1986 time frame, I probably flew your sorry arse around.

I know full well I posted tripe, and half of it was meant to be tongue-in-cheek boob-bait to see what other people would post on this thread. Obviously it worked, as you fell for the bait. Rolling Eyes



You're an idiot if you think you flew me around in 85-86 at Schwab because I was in North Carolina at that time. That's the real Marine Corps, not some Pacific paradise. I did my time at Schwab when you were a boot louie still wet behind the ears.

We had this discussion in Capt (Navy) Levin's National Security Policy class last Jan-May at UWF. The Chinks are not ready to fight and use this carrier until at least 2020 at the earliest at best. You can contact him at UWF and ask him if you would like. I think his 31 years working for Naval Intel and various three letter agencies top any information that you might care to offer on this topic. As usual, you are hot air and worthless in your assumptions and pontifications.



Last edited by PACEDOG#1 on 11/26/2012, 10:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

Guest


Guest

salinski wrote:
ZVUGKTUBM wrote:
PACEDOG#1 wrote:
ZVUGKTUBM wrote:http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/25/world/asia/china-aircraft-carrier-landing/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Chinese Land First Jet on its Aircraft Carrier 12112510

We can't even defeat the World's Muslims--How will we ever defeat the Yellow hordes? I knew Bush made a mistake in invading Iraq....All the Chinese needed to do was stay quiet and watch us beat our military up fighting against fanatical Muslims. The way things are going, by the time they have their carrier force up and running, we likey won't be able to even afford aircraft carriers.



Dude,

You claim to have been a PILOT in the Marines and post this sort of tripe? The US was landing aircraft on carriers in the teens of the last century. What do you imagine the sortie rate will be considering the configuration of this AC and it's fubar RAMP to launch planes that allows just one take off at a time? This is ONE carrier that they have yet to master operations off of and you claim the end of the world. Thank GOD you don't work in Intel or any part of the military that collects intelligence because your claims would get you laughed out of the room even by the most junior of intel analysts at the non-rate level of the military.

Dude I was a pilot in the Marines. I was a Captain and had over 2,000 flight hours before you got your first stripe after boot camp. If you were at Camp Pendleton or on Okinawa in the 1985-1986 time frame, I probably flew your sorry arse around.

I know full well I posted tripe, and half of it was meant to be tongue-in-cheek boob-bait to see what other people would post on this thread. Obviously it worked, as you fell for the bait. Rolling Eyes

Whisper alley commando?



he is no commando...LOL....he was a trash hauler for the Corps.

ZVUGKTUBM

ZVUGKTUBM

he is no commando...LOL....he was a trash hauler for the Corps.

That's right... You call, we haul... Beans, bullets, people, trash, whatever can be shoved in the back of a CH-53, or whatever gear can be slung underneath externally. We were proud to be called "Trash Haulers."

http://www.best-electric-barbecue-grills.com

Markle

Markle

ZVUGKTUBM wrote:http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/25/world/asia/china-aircraft-carrier-landing/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Chinese Land First Jet on its Aircraft Carrier 12112510

We can't even defeat the World's Muslims--How will we ever defeat the Yellow hordes? I knew Bush made a mistake in invading Iraq....All the Chinese needed to do was stay quiet and watch us beat our military up fighting against fanatical Muslims. The way things are going, by the time they have their carrier force up and running, we likey won't be able to even afford aircraft carriers.

According to you, if it weren't for President George Walker Bush the world would be a Utopia and we'd all be sitting around singing Kumbaya.

If you recall, it was President William Jefferson Clinton who made it possible for our country to sell China our state of the art rocket motors and rocket guidance systems. Until then, they had a difficult time hitting the Pacific Ocean. They have now proven that they can kill an orbiting satellite.

It was also President Clinton, having had the groundwork laid by President Jimmy Carter who turned control over the ports at both ends of the Panama Canal over to China. The canal is being greatly enlarged. Want to bet their carrier and future ones, are being built to go through the canal.

Last month a Russian Sub spent a month on maneuvers in the Gulf of Mexico undiscovered. We learned that from other sources.

Markle

Markle

nochain wrote:This is what a real carrier operation looks like:

Chinese Land First Jet on its Aircraft Carrier Med-might-07-2012

China has stated that they now have a operational rocket which can take out one of our carriers.

That again would be thanks to the systems made available to they my President William Jefferson Clinton.

Markle

Markle

knothead wrote:
2seaoat wrote:Investing in vulnerable carrier groups which could be neutralized in hours by the use of tactical nuclear weapons.......then who makes the decision on a second strike to unleash strategic nuclear weapons on the mainland of the country who neutralized our carrier groups?

Carrier groups and the marginot line have something in common.......they both played a significant role in defense at one point in history......but in another time..........well we shall see.

*******************************************

That's why we have a submarine fleet with strategic nuclear capability prowling the world's waters 24/7 . . . .

China is building submarines at an alarming rate. We have no clue how many they have or are being built. We recently discovered that they have a submarine base, built into a mountain with only an underwater access. We can't tell if, when or how many submarines are at port or exiting and entering by any of our satellites.

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