Failed.....first female Marine Infantry officers drop out/quit the training

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2012/10/marine-corps-womem-infantry-officers-course-101512/



Why did the Corps even try this? Pressure from the PC crowd? When will it ever be learned by politicians that the military is not a training ground or proving ground for whatever social issue comes down the pipe that might be infecting the civilian world?

I knew that this would result in two female Marines getting rejected. Men FAIL this course and some men in quite good shape, with great military bearing, and the ability to physically make it on this level. Physiologically speaking, women are not made to carry around 100+ pound ruck sacks or tote a wounded 200+ pound man with his gear as well when wounded or KIA.

It would behoove the military to stop trying to make females the same as males and give them the same responsibilities in an environment that requires a shit ton of testosterone, physical stamina and really, a desire to truly be there and be successful. I'd bet on training day one these women were crying in their bunks wondering what they had gotten themselves into by volunteering to do this.


The next IOC will begin this winter. So far, no new volunteers have emerged, said Maj. Shawn Haney, a spokeswoman for Manpower and Reserve Affairs in Quantico, the command leading the Marine Corps’ research. Nevertheless, she said, the experiences of these first two volunteers will prove valuable as senior leaders contemplate potential next moves.

As part of the Corps’ ongoing review, officials have opened nearly 400 jobs in select ground combat units — billets in artillery and tank battalions, among others — to female officers and staff noncommissioned officers. Previously, only men were allowed to fill those jobs. Additionally, Marine officials are exploring whether the service should develop “gender-neutral” physical standards.




Time to put this fantasy to rest. Gender neutral physical standards? That ruck sack doesn't give a rat's butt what you are, but only if you can pick it up and march 20 miles if need be and then engage an enemy successfully through fire and manuever, or close hand to hand combat if need be.

I agree w/your position on this, PD. Hey, at least the USMC didn't alter (dumb-down) the physical requirements for women, as fire departments and other agencies across the country have done in recent (~25 or so) years.

While I might often state that women should be able to and can do everything men do, I am usually at fault for omitting the caveats that if physical requirements are in-play, the women should absolutely be required to pass the very same physical requirements as the men who are trying to get that same job. The second caveat is that I firmly believe that there are certain jobs / areas in the military where women simply do not belong, as their mere presence puts not only themselves, but their team mates and others in life-threatening danger. And that is of course, the more important issue with respect to this subject.

Just proves aqain that Women are smarter than men.......

There are jobs men are better at and jobs that women are better at....

PACEDOG#1 wrote:There are jobs men are better at and jobs that women are better at....

Amen, brother. My daddy began teaching me that when I was four after my mommy died and I started following him around asking him, "Whatcha doing NOW, Daddy?" while he was working on his pickup, the dozer, doing something in the woodshop... you name it. When he was working on his pickup, he'd set me up in the corner opposite the battery under the hood (or if he was working under the pickup, he'd scootch me under there with him) and explain the mechanics of the component, what he was doing as if I were a grown man, explaining this connects to that and makes this do that, &c, &c. Same thing in the woodshop, on the dozer, or whatever.

Because of all that, I was always very interested in traditionally guy-stuff, and as I got older my dad always told me (very seriously) that I could do anything that any man could do if I wanted to (this was before the fire dept changed the physical requirements for women. He was a firefighter for 37-yrs). He pointed out the things that he felt women were better at than men, in particular, welding, and anything that required fine motor skills combined with acute attention to detail, and things that did not require brute-strength and (typically) large size.

When I got into high school, girls were supposed to take Home Economics (which taught girls how to make toast and oatmeal cookies, which I was way beyond), but by state law they had to give us an option to take Ag Mechanics (woodshop, welding, &c) instead, and the flipside for boys, so I enrolled in welding. I was immediately assigned to be manage the Tool Crib, which I was fine with until I realized that the teacher had no intention of ever letting me weld. When I confronted him he laughed and said, "Yeah right. Like I'm going to let some GIRL blow up my shop!" Trouble was, this guy was also one of my Ag / FFA advisors, so I figured I couldn't piss him off TOO badly, so didn't know what to do.

The second week of classes my dad asked how my welding class was going and I told him that I'd been delegated to manage the Tool Crib and that I was not going to be allowed to weld, and told him what the jerk had said to me. Now, in my household, my mom handled all the school stuff. But my dad was PISSED and called that jerk up at home immediately after supper and gave him what-for, telling him that among other things that I had much more mechanical aptitude than my older brother did (and does, which is very true... he doesn't have a mechanical interest or bone in his body) and he let HIM weld (implication being that my brother was far more likely to blow up his shop), that my dad had already TAUGHT ME to weld, that I was very good and showed excellent promise for a beginner, that there are many things that girls are better or just as good as men are, and that welding is one of them (fine motorskills, coupled w/attn to detail, and all that). My dad finished by telling that SOB that if he did not allow me to weld he would find himself in a meeting not with my mom (who is downright scary when she's defending her children) but with my dad, the superintendent of schools, and being called upon to defend his choice to not allow me to weld, along with his choice of words.

He begrudgingly allowed me to weld, was harder on me than on any of the boys in the class (which was fine with me), but had no choice but to give me an A, because my work was truly above-par. And fortunately nearly all the boys in the class stood behind me. I'd always been a tomboy, and they well knew what I might be capable of... I'd talked cars and trucks with many of them, and had had woodshop with nearly all of them in junior high. After that, he was really shitty with me as my Ag / FFA Advisor, so my mom went to bat for me and had him removed as one of my advisors.

That all being said, my dad also taught me that there are some things that are just not for women of a normal stature or strength. And when my dad's life was put in jeopardy when the county fire department changed the rules so that women could pass the physical requirements... Well, I understood that ever-so-clearly. When my brother joined USMC Force Recon, I likewise understood with acute clarity that there are other positions in which women simply do not belong, for the safety of everyone, including but not limited to the women themselves, and not just because of their strength and/or size.

Apologies for the overly long post. Possibly too much coffee?? Nahhh, not meeee! Truthfully, this is an issue that is and always has been an issue about which I have felt very passionately.

I have three daughters taught each to be strong minded and self-sufficient... might have over done it a bit with the oldest (21). Thght for awhile that I'd have to find her a small third world country for her to rule as supreme dictator. She was much better after she started college.

riceme wrote:

PACEDOG#1 wrote:There are jobs men are better at and jobs that women are better at....

Amen, brother. My daddy began teaching me that when I was four after my mommy died and I started following him around asking him, "Whatcha doing NOW, Daddy?" while he was working on his pickup, the dozer, doing something in the woodshop... you name it. When he was working on his pickup, he'd set me up in the corner opposite the battery under the hood (or if he was working under the pickup, he'd scootch me under there with him) and explain the mechanics of the component, what he was doing as if I were a grown man, explaining this connects to that and makes this do that, &c, &c. Same thing in the woodshop, on the dozer, or whatever.

Because of all that, I was always very interested in traditionally guy-stuff, and as I got older my dad always told me (very seriously) that I could do anything that any man could do if I wanted to (this was before the fire dept changed the physical requirements for women. He was a firefighter for 37-yrs). He pointed out the things that he felt women were better at than men, in particular, welding, and anything that required fine motor skills combined with acute attention to detail, and things that did not require brute-strength and (typically) large size.

When I got into high school, girls were supposed to take Home Economics (which taught girls how to make toast and oatmeal cookies, which I was way beyond), but by state law they had to give us an option to take Ag Mechanics (woodshop, welding, &c) instead, and the flipside for boys, so I enrolled in welding. I was immediately assigned to be manage the Tool Crib, which I was fine with until I realized that the teacher had no intention of ever letting me weld. When I confronted him he laughed and said, "Yeah right. Like I'm going to let some GIRL blow up my shop!" Trouble was, this guy was also one of my Ag / FFA advisors, so I figured I couldn't piss him off TOO badly, so didn't know what to do.

The second week of classes my dad asked how my welding class was going and I told him that I'd been delegated to manage the Tool Crib and that I was not going to be allowed to weld, and told him what the jerk had said to me. Now, in my household, my mom handled all the school stuff. But my dad was PISSED and called that jerk up at home immediately after supper and gave him what-for, telling him that among other things that I had much more mechanical aptitude than my older brother did (and does, which is very true... he doesn't have a mechanical interest or bone in his body) and he let HIM weld (implication being that my brother was far more likely to blow up his shop), that my dad had already TAUGHT ME to weld, that I was very good and showed excellent promise for a beginner, that there are many things that girls are better or just as good as men are, and that welding is one of them (fine motorskills, coupled w/attn to detail, and all that). My dad finished by telling that SOB that if he did not allow me to weld he would find himself in a meeting not with my mom (who is downright scary when she's defending her children) but with my dad, the superintendent of schools, and being called upon to defend his choice to not allow me to weld, along with his choice of words.

He begrudgingly allowed me to weld, was harder on me than on any of the boys in the class (which was fine with me), but had no choice but to give me an A, because my work was truly above-par. And fortunately nearly all the boys in the class stood behind me. I'd always been a tomboy, and they well knew what I might be capable of... I'd talked cars and trucks with many of them, and had had woodshop with nearly all of them in junior high. After that, he was really shitty with me as my Ag / FFA Advisor, so my mom went to bat for me and had him removed as one of my advisors.

That all being said, my dad also taught me that there are some things that are just not for women of a normal stature or strength. And when my dad's life was put in jeopardy when the county fire department changed the rules so that women could pass the physical requirements... Well, I understood that ever-so-clearly. When my brother joined USMC Force Recon, I likewise understood with acute clarity that there are other positions in which women simply do not belong, for the safety of everyone, including but not limited to the women themselves, and not just because of their strength and/or size.

Apologies for the overly long post. Possibly too much coffee?? Nahhh, not meeee! Truthfully, this is an issue that is and always has been an issue about which I have felt very passionately.

Not long and I get to know one of my fellow posters here on the forums.

PkrBum wrote:I have three daughters taught each to be strong minded and self-sufficient... might have over done it a bit with the oldest (21). Thght for awhile that I'd have to find her a small third world country for her to rule as supreme dictator. She was much better after she started college.

LOL. I can relate to that. My folks brought all six of us up to be strong and very independent. I think they over-did it, as none of us are married (I am the youngest at 40, oldest is 60).

The oldest has been engaged for 5-years and we refer to his fiance as his "wife" our of respect for her, but they have not been able to marry because she is Catholic, wants a Catholic marriage, and the church will not allow him to convert. So, ehh, you could say that 5/6 of us are single I suppose... if you're being generous with the definition.

We are all VERY picky and, much to our detriment in relationships, very much enjoy our independence. Particularly w/the four girls, that has historically been a big problem.

I agree with everything you said, Riceme. I don't care what gender, color, religion or whatever a fireperson is...as long as they can pull people out of fires. Few women have the strength to do the job.

I also believe, for more than just strength reasons, there are jobs in the military that are unsuited for women.

It's not about equality, it's about differences in men and women. Women do some things better. Men do some things better. Men and women are meant to compliment each other's strengths and weaknesses, not fight over who is best at what.

Strength is an issue for firefighters but not a major one. Personally i think that the stamina required for doing repetitive tasks is more important. sometimes we have to throw an axe or a sledgehammer at a job for 20 to 30 minutes solid with no letting up while wearing heavy protective equipment and bunker gear with a thermal barrier. The ability to form a plan of attack in a split second is also critical. You must make a correct decision in an instant that may mean your or your brothers life so you have to be right everytime. One last thing and it may sound wierd, but most firefighters i know, including me have to have the mindset that this watch may be the last one. None of us welcome death but none of us fear it.

Nekochan wrote:I agree with everything you said, Riceme. I don't care what gender, color, religion or whatever a fireperson is...as long as they can pull people out of fires. Few women have the strength to do the job.

I also believe, for more than just strength reasons, there are jobs in the military that are unsuited for women.

It's not about equality, it's about differences in men and women. Women do some things better. Men do some things better. Men and women are meant to compliment each other's strengths and weaknesses, not fight over who is best at what.

Darn right, Neko.

To expound here on why I feel so passionately about the fire department changing the rules on physical requirements for women, it hit home when a VERY small,... and I hesitate, but have to say relative to the men, weak, woman passed the new physical requirements for women at the county fire department where my dad worked for 37-years. Had she chosen to work at his station, she would have directly put his life in jeopardy.

My dad is a big, barrel chested man, 6-ft tall, at the time about 200-lbs of muscle, and she is 5-ft tall... tiny frame. There would have been no way in hell that if my dad would have gotten into trouble in a structure fire, for example, she would have been able to haul his ass out if they were partnered together. And, as Gunz could testify, seconds count in those situations. Instead, she chose another station and put other men's lives in danger. And there WERE life threatening situations. Fortunately, no one was ever killed because of her because other men always shadowed her because they knew the risks, and were there as backup when she couldn't tow the line. Waste of taxpayer dollars on top of it all.

Gunz wrote:Strength is an issue for firefighters but not a major one. Personally i think that the stamina required for doing repetitive tasks is more important. sometimes we have to throw an axe or a sledgehammer at a job for 20 to 30 minutes solid with no letting up while wearing heavy protective equipment and bunker gear with a thermal barrier. The ability to form a plan of attack in a split second is also critical. You must make a correct decision in an instant that may mean your or your brothers life so you have to be right everytime. One last thing and it may sound wierd, but most firefighters i know, including me have to have the mindset that this watch may be the last one. None of us welcome death but none of us fear it.

Right, I understand what you're saying about stamina.

Gunz wrote:Strength is an issue for firefighters but not a major one. Personally i think that the stamina required for doing repetitive tasks is more important. sometimes we have to throw an axe or a sledgehammer at a job for 20 to 30 minutes solid with no letting up while wearing heavy protective equipment and bunker gear with a thermal barrier. The ability to form a plan of attack in a split second is also critical. You must make a correct decision in an instant that may mean your or your brothers life so you have to be right everytime. One last thing and it may sound wierd, but most firefighters i know, including me have to have the mindset that this watch may be the last one. None of us welcome death but none of us fear it.

RE: Bolded above: My dad retired in 1990, if memory serves... Things may have changed a lot since then. It was most certainly a major issue then. Also, I would imagine that the majority of your structures are brick, cinder block, &c. Nearly 100% of the structures out here are stick, and we have a lot of structure fires with collapses, firefighters trapped, rescues required. Major difference. And by stating above, I by NO means intend to diminish you all's work or disrespect your work and the danger that you place yourselves in on a daily basis. You know me well enough to know that I have the utmost respect for what you all do, Gunz. Just providing backup for my previous statements / post. And, please reconsider that they CHANGED the physical qualifications for women. I maintain that that is wrong on all levels and puts men's lives in jeopardy.

Allow me a weak analogy/story. I split logs and chop wood all the time (with both a splitting maul and an axe) and while I have a very small frame, I am very strong and have good stamina compared to most other women. That being said, my dad is 78 and I cannot keep up with him. I CERTAINLY could not do it or keep up with him turned-out in full gear. I have suited up (just for fun) in his gear before, and in my sister's hotshot gear and cousins' smoke jumper gear, and... let's just say that IT'S FREAKIN' HEAVY. Difficult to see in, walk around on a flat, stable surface in, let alone hike up AND down a stinkin' hill in. You all have all of my respect and admiration for doing what you do.

riceme wrote:

Nekochan wrote:I agree with everything you said, Riceme. I don't care what gender, color, religion or whatever a fireperson is...as long as they can pull people out of fires. Few women have the strength to do the job.

I also believe, for more than just strength reasons, there are jobs in the military that are unsuited for women.

It's not about equality, it's about differences in men and women. Women do some things better. Men do some things better. Men and women are meant to compliment each other's strengths and weaknesses, not fight over who is best at what.

Darn right, Neko.

To expound here on why I feel so passionately about the fire department changing the rules on physical requirements for women, it hit home when a VERY small,... and I hesitate, but have to say relative to the men, weak, woman passed the new physical requirements for women at the county fire department where my dad worked for 37-years. Had she chosen to work at his station, she would have directly put his life in jeopardy.

My dad is a big, barrel chested man, 6-ft tall, at the time about 200-lbs of muscle, and she is 5-ft tall... tiny frame. There would have been no way in hell that if my dad would have gotten into trouble in a structure fire, for example, she would have been able to haul his ass out if they were partnered together. And, as Gunz could testify, seconds count in those situations. Instead, she chose another station and put other men's lives in danger. And there WERE life threatening situations. Fortunately, no one was ever killed because of her because other men always shadowed her because they knew the risks, and were there as backup when she couldn't tow the line. Waste of taxpayer dollars on top of it all.

I also think that nature or instinct makes most men "look after" a woman in a dangerous setting or situation. A man doesn't need that extra distraction when he's trying to fight a battle or a fire. I know it's sexist, but that is my opinion.

You are both correct of course about the requirements being slackened for females. But, in all honesty, there are a few here who I would trust with my life before some of the smaller guys. And then there are some of the gals that we have to constantly take up the slack for, that gets old. Rice, I know that you are proud of your dad. The way you described him sounded just like my dad. Tell him a Florida FF said Hi.

On edit....Maybe strength is more of an issue and I didnt realize it. I was just going over in my head some of our heavier tasks and realized that carrying and using a 60 pound hydraulic spreader(jaws of life) and shears definately requires strength. Repositioning a 5 inch supply line or dragging a 2 1/2 inch master stream is big time tough. Taking a 35 foot ladder off of the truck and properly locating it at the fire is a beast. Rice, I stand corrected

Gunz wrote:You are both correct of course about the requirements being slackened for females. But, in all honesty, there are a few here who I would trust with my life before some of the smaller guys. And then there are some of the gals that we have to constantly take up the slack for, that gets old. Rice, I know that you are proud of your dad. The way you described him sounded just like my dad. Tell him a Florida FF said Hi.

On edit....Maybe strength is more of an issue and I didnt realize it. I was just going over in my head some of our heavier tasks and realized that carrying and using a 60 pound hydraulic spreader(jaws of life) and shears definately requires strength. Repositioning a 5 inch supply line or dragging a 2 1/2 inch master stream is big time tough. Taking a 35 foot ladder off of the truck and properly locating it at the fire is a beast. Rice, I stand corrected

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Oh heck yeah. There were times in the USAF where the more petite females just could not handle the physical requirements of their AFSC. The same thing happened when I worked in the oil well stimulation (frak jobs, etc).

Gunz....have you ever had a real time situation where the female could not perform her duties at a fire...?

I'm already afraid of fire, or let's just say....healthy respect. Both of my G-parents homesteads burned to the ground, and my parents experienced a fire that almost completely destroyed my Father's office.

The house we bought suffered a complete destruction fire and was totally rebuilt and upgraded 6 years before we bought it.

Nekochan wrote:

I also think that nature or instinct makes most men "look after" a woman in a dangerous setting or situation. A man doesn't need that extra distraction when he's trying to fight a battle or a fire. I know it's sexist, but that is my opinion.

I think you're right, and I don't think it's sexist. I think it's instinct, just as you said.

W_T_M wrote:

Gunz wrote:You are both correct of course about the requirements being slackened for females. But, in all honesty, there are a few here who I would trust with my life before some of the smaller guys. And then there are some of the gals that we have to constantly take up the slack for, that gets old. Rice, I know that you are proud of your dad. The way you described him sounded just like my dad. Tell him a Florida FF said Hi.

On edit....Maybe strength is more of an issue and I didnt realize it. I was just going over in my head some of our heavier tasks and realized that carrying and using a 60 pound hydraulic spreader(jaws of life) and shears definately requires strength. Repositioning a 5 inch supply line or dragging a 2 1/2 inch master stream is big time tough. Taking a 35 foot ladder off of the truck and properly locating it at the fire is a beast. Rice, I stand corrected

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Oh heck yeah. There were times in the USAF where the more petite females just could not handle the physical requirements of their AFSC. The same thing happened when I worked in the oil well stimulation (frak jobs, etc).

Gunz....have you ever had a real time situation where the female could not perform her duties at a fire...?

I'm already afraid of fire, or let's just say....healthy respect. Both of my G-parents homesteads burned to the ground, and my parents experienced a fire that almost completely destroyed my Father's office.

The house we bought suffered a complete destruction fire and was totally rebuilt and upgraded 6 years before we bought it.

Nothing life threatening . Simply mundane tasks such as pulling ceilings or throwing wet matresses out of windows during overhaul etc. Some of them lack the stamina and strength to do it. We simply send them on to something less strenuous and smile and shake our heads. What can you do about it? Nothing, accept it for what it is and move on.

Gunz wrote:

W_T_M wrote:

Gunz wrote:You are both correct of course about the requirements being slackened for females. But, in all honesty, there are a few here who I would trust with my life before some of the smaller guys. And then there are some of the gals that we have to constantly take up the slack for, that gets old. Rice, I know that you are proud of your dad. The way you described him sounded just like my dad. Tell him a Florida FF said Hi.

On edit....Maybe strength is more of an issue and I didnt realize it. I was just going over in my head some of our heavier tasks and realized that carrying and using a 60 pound hydraulic spreader(jaws of life) and shears definately requires strength. Repositioning a 5 inch supply line or dragging a 2 1/2 inch master stream is big time tough. Taking a 35 foot ladder off of the truck and properly locating it at the fire is a beast. Rice, I stand corrected

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Oh heck yeah. There were times in the USAF where the more petite females just could not handle the physical requirements of their AFSC. The same thing happened when I worked in the oil well stimulation (frak jobs, etc).

Gunz....have you ever had a real time situation where the female could not perform her duties at a fire...?

I'm already afraid of fire, or let's just say....healthy respect. Both of my G-parents homesteads burned to the ground, and my parents experienced a fire that almost completely destroyed my Father's office.

The house we bought suffered a complete destruction fire and was totally rebuilt and upgraded 6 years before we bought it.

Nothing life threatening . Simply mundane tasks such as pulling ceilings or throwing wet matresses out of windows during overhaul etc. Some of them lack the stamina and strength to do it. We simply send them on to something less strenuous and smile and shake our heads. What can you do about it? Nothing, accept it for what it is and move on.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Got it. I always think about that scenario when I see a fire on a TV drama.

Later...

Gunz wrote:You are both correct of course about the requirements being slackened for females. But, in all honesty, there are a few here who I would trust with my life before some of the smaller guys. And then there are some of the gals that we have to constantly take up the slack for, that gets old. Rice, I know that you are proud of your dad. The way you described him sounded just like my dad. Tell him a Florida FF said Hi.

On edit....Maybe strength is more of an issue and I didnt realize it. I was just going over in my head some of our heavier tasks and realized that carrying and using a 60 pound hydraulic spreader(jaws of life) and shears definately requires strength. Repositioning a 5 inch supply line or dragging a 2 1/2 inch master stream is big time tough. Taking a 35 foot ladder off of the truck and properly locating it at the fire is a beast. Rice, I stand corrected

Oh trust me, my dad has also been in situations where there were men (both men of smaller and larger stature) with whom he did not want to entrust his life. Let's face it, shitbags abound. He was the Captain and was able to document their shortcomings and fire some of them. The ones who had troubles but who WANTED and COULD be better, he helped or tried to help. Some of them however, had "connections" (which I refer to as "having dirty pictures on someone") and couldn't be gotten rid of by anyone. Dad could have been a Batt Chief many years before he retired, but didn't want to sit at a desk... would have killed him. He wanted to fight fire and lead his men on the ground.

He was the Captain of the Heavy Equipment station in the county for, geez, 20+ years or so... much more interesting, exciting and fun than any of the other stations. I spent more Thanksgivings and Christmases at firehouses than I did at home. I always loved that. And I LOVED going to the station, especially out to the heavy equipment yard to see what Dad and the guys were working on and on road crew with my dad. I miss the old days.

The gal whom I referred earlier to couldn't even haul hose... Of what use is a firefighter like that?? None, so far as I'm concerned. Because she couldn't tow the line in any other capacity, she was finally delegated to being the firehouse cook (she was a good cook... she's now retired) and to manning the station, washing the trucks, cleaning, all the BS jobs that no one else worth their salt wanted. She didn't even complain. What kind of firefighter is THAT?? Unfortunately, she was our neighbor... lived right up the hill from us.

Back to the strength issue, as I mentioned before, despite my small stature I am pretty strong for a girl, but I have at times had trouble using my body weight as leverage. When I was a mechanic on wind turbines, we had a 4-ft long, 44M torque wrench to torque the blade bearing nuts (I am 5'7" and 135, clothed and w/boots on, but only a size 2 - 4... I was probably a little bigger then, in fact), and as many times as I tried, and even with coaching from my husband (who is of smaller stature, although very strong for his size, for a man) on how to utilize my body weight, when to do exactly what with it and how, I could NEVER get the torque wrench to "click."

It frustrated me so much (and because I am so stubborn) that I tried over and over and over again, day after day, week after week after week, wearing myself out to no avail. The guys on the crew, the crew leaders and supervisors liked me (I was the only girl on the floor w/~250 men, and had passed all the same physical, mechanical, hydraulic and crane requirements they had, and I'd earned their respect) and they wanted me to succeed, so they all chipped-in, trying to help me succeed in my efforts, but it never happened. I finally insisted on switching teams because if I could not do everything the men on the team could do, I didn't want to be on that team. It bummed me out... I loved all of my jobs and teams there, but they were my favorite. They were kind of like Home to me.

"'Tis a lesson you should heed: / Try, try, try again. / If at first you don't succeed, / Try, try, try again." --W.E. Hickson

"...and afterward if you still don't succeed, try something else." --riceme

riceme wrote:

Amen, brother. My daddy began teaching me that when I was four after my mommy died and I started following him around asking him, "Whatcha doing NOW, Daddy?" while he was working on his pickup, the dozer, doing something in the woodshop... you name it. When he was working on his pickup, he'd set me up in the corner opposite the battery under the hood (or if he was working under the pickup, he'd scootch me under there with him) and explain

Treating your kid like that - along with giving them a good dog - are the two secrets of the universe. Male, female, we'd never have to raise another army again.

BigSail wrote:

riceme wrote:

Amen, brother. My daddy began teaching me that when I was four after my mommy died and I started following him around asking him, "Whatcha doing NOW, Daddy?" while he was working on his pickup, the dozer, doing something in the woodshop... you name it. When he was working on his pickup, he'd set me up in the corner opposite the battery under the hood (or if he was working under the pickup, he'd scootch me under there with him) and explain

Treating your kid like that - along with giving them a good dog - are the two secrets of the universe. Male, female, we'd never have to raise another army again.

I agree with you, BigSail... It was especially important and formative for me because my mommy had just died, I was so very young, and I didn't understand. My dad did what he knew how to do, gave me the attention he knew how to give... and he never spoke to us like babies (although he was very playful when the time was right), always like adults, which I believe contributed to our performance in school. I always did very well, but my sister has a genius IQ (however, no common sense to go with it). We have always been able to pass for twins, and are only two years apart in school, so my teachers (very small town) constantly ragged on me about why I wasn't as good as she was, which had a terrible effect on my self-esteem. As I grew older, I became happy that I was of a more average intelligence and had common sense, as opposed to having a genius IQ and no common sense. I attribute my common sense to all the years that I spent shadowing my dad. He taught me a lot about a whole lot of things that I realistically could have learned nowhere else.

He has giant hands and fingers the circumference of golf balls (which is an exaggeration, but you get the point), but he learned how to do me and my sister's hair so we didn't look like ragamuffins when we went to school. In fact, he had my mommy teach him before she died.

A very sweet, practical, loving dad... the very best.

I could NEVER get the torque wrench to "click."

Next time get a piece of steel pipe about three to four feet long and keep the same behind the seat in your truck. Slip the pipe over the end of the torque wrench and use leverage on the extension.....you can do something that I can do with the use of leverage.....if that was part of the job....and you were having problems.....I guarantee some of the men were having problems, but they probably were not going to tell you about the pipe extension. Many torque wrenches have a hole where you can drill a hole in your pipe and slip a pin through the pipe and catch the wrench which allows you to go wild women all over that leveraged torque wrench.

Nekochan wrote:I agree with everything you said, Riceme. I don't care what gender, color, religion or whatever a fireperson is...as long as they can pull people out of fires. Few women have the strength to do the job.

I also believe, for more than just strength reasons, there are jobs in the military that are unsuited for women.

It's not about equality, it's about differences in men and women. Women do some things better. Men do some things better. Men and women are meant to compliment each other's strengths and weaknesses, not fight over who is best at what.

Some years back "Time" magazine ran a cover story with the shocking revelation that Men and Women are different. I think Progressives from coast to coast had to run for the antacid.

It doesn't mean that one is better than the other, only different.