Selective service draft lottery Viet Nam era

After watching documentaries on Viet Nam all morning, I am thinking about American Foreign policy and my life as it winds down. The first lottery draft happened in December 1969. I was a senior in high school and had registered for the draft at 16 and because I was a high school student my draft card said 1-s. It was a high school student deferment. I had been working since I was 14 and had saved up enough for all my room and board at a state University for a year and a half, and when the first December lottery happened, because I was a high school student I did not pay much attention thinking it applied to much older people. Well my birthday was December 4, 1951 and I had just graduated from high school in June and was working 60 hours a week saving for college when the July draft was announced. I did not think I was old enough to be in that draft because all my friends who were in my grade, were not in that lottery, but when I got home and they mentioned people born in 1951 was in this lottery I was totally surprised. My high school deferment had passed and my new draft card was 1a and I realized that I might get drafted. I got the number 305, and they were only going to 100, and I realized I would probably not be drafted.

I look back at how utterly stupid our presence was in Viet Nam as we expended twice the armaments we did in WWII giving record profits to MIC. I think of these kids no different than me going up hamburger hill and being killed and maimed, only to desert the hill in a week as the VC just retook the same. It was insanity. Yet, those who by the luck of a lottery did not go see it as an insane waste of humanity, and those who went see it as defending America. I thought about T today. He did not find what he did in Viet Nam as honorable. He was the exception. Yet, we honor people who fight wars and in that process we sanctify war. I listened to heart wrenching stories of returning vets being yelled at by demonstrators, but the truth is that the millions of innocents we killed for absolutely no strategic reason concerning the defense of America were killed by American kids.

Today we can hear the propaganda. The attempts to make China an aggressor. The attempts to stoke the war drums with Korea. We have never been a more vulnerable nation in the last 100 years because of this insistence to kneel and worship all things military while the MIC makes record profits by more sophisticated and complex weapons. As I look back over the last 65 years nothing is more clear than the need to stand against the militarization of this nation. We are becoming less safe, and we threaten the entire world with death and destruction of civilization. It is not easy to announce these opinions among friends and neighbors, because a person will be attacked, but the time has come to speak the truth despite the consequences, the insanity must stop.

2 million innocent civilians died in the Viet Nam War.  58k Americans died.  1 million Viet Cong and North Viet Nam regulars died in the conflict.  All that wealth dumped down the rabbit hole, and today we are honoring military tradition as if it is like World War II when nation states fought and our territory was attacked.   The war drums are beating and we have a person in the White House who is dangerous to every American and every civilian in the world.   The propaganda is at full bore.  I saw it this weekend at a rodeo, and I hear the war drums on tv as talking heads talk absolute chit.   Mic is making record money as the stock market peaks, and like sheep being led to the slaughter, we are blind to the reality.  The storm which is coming is obvious.

Seaoat, I have too many memories of those years that are painful to recall, especially now. It seemed senseless to me then...and still does. Here is a reminder of what else was going on in that era.

http://theweek.com/captured/712838/long-hot-summer-1967?utm_campaign=newsletter&utm_source=afternoon&utm_medium=08_03_17-captured

Floridatexan wrote:
Seaoat, I have too many memories of those years that are painful to recall, especially now.  It seemed senseless to me then...and still does.  Here is a reminder of what else was going on in that era.

http://theweek.com/captured/712838/long-hot-summer-1967?utm_campaign=newsletter&utm_source=afternoon&utm_medium=08_03_17-captured

I remember . . . . . in my 3rd yr of college . . . . horrid memories.

2seaoat wrote:After watching documentaries on Viet Nam all morning, I am thinking about American Foreign policy and my life as it winds down.   The first lottery draft happened in December 1969.  I was a senior in high school and had registered for the draft at 16 and because I was a high school student my draft card said 1-s.  It was a high school student deferment.  I had been working since I was 14 and had saved up enough for all my room and board at a state University for a year and a half, and when the first December lottery happened, because I was a high school student I did not pay much attention thinking it applied to much older people.  Well my birthday was December 4, 1951 and I had just graduated from high school in June and was working 60 hours a week saving for college when the July draft was announced.  I did not think I was old enough to be in that draft because all my friends who were in my grade, were not in that lottery, but when I got home and they mentioned people born in 1951 was in this lottery I was totally surprised.  My high school deferment had passed and my new draft card was 1a and I realized that I might get drafted.  I got the number 305, and they were only going to 100, and I realized I would probably not be drafted.

I look back at how utterly stupid our presence was in Viet Nam as we expended twice the armaments we did in WWII giving record profits to MIC.  I think of these kids no different than me going up hamburger hill and being killed and maimed, only to desert the hill in a week  as the VC just retook the same.   It was insanity.  Yet, those who by the luck of a lottery did not go see it as an insane waste of humanity, and those who went see it as defending America.  I thought about T today.  He did not find what he did in Viet Nam as honorable.  He was the exception.  Yet, we honor people who fight wars and in that process we sanctify war.  I listened to heart wrenching stories of returning vets being yelled at by demonstrators, but the truth is that the millions of innocents we killed for absolutely no strategic reason concerning the defense of America were killed by American kids.

Today we can hear the propaganda.  The attempts to make China an aggressor.  The attempts to stoke the war drums with Korea.  We have never been a more vulnerable nation in the last 100 years because of this insistence to kneel and worship all things military while the MIC makes record profits by more sophisticated and complex weapons.  As I look back over the last 65 years nothing is more clear than the need to stand against the militarization of this nation.  We are becoming less safe, and we threaten the entire world with death and destruction of civilization.  It is not easy to announce these opinions among friends and neighbors, because a person will be attacked, but the time has come to speak the truth despite the consequences, the insanity must stop.

So you are no better than Obama, Trump, Dick Cheney, or the rest of the chickenhawks?

So you are no better than Obama, Trump, Dick Cheney, or the rest of the chickenhawks?[/quote]


Couple of things trip, can i call you trip, BHO was born the same year as I so to young for Vietnam.
The definition of chickenhawk is : a person who speaks out in support of war, yet has avoided active military service. I don't see where 2seaoat ever advocated going to war.

polecat wrote:

So you are no better than Obama, Trump, Dick Cheney, or the rest of the chickenhawks?

Couple of things trip, can i call you trip, BHO was born the same year as I so to young for Vietnam.
The definition of chickenhawk is : a person who speaks out in support of war, yet has avoided active military service. I don't see where 2seaoat ever advocated going to war. [/quote]

Obama could have served in Beirut, Grenada or all Gulf Wars. He was too busy community scandalizing

Thats right! I forgot all about the Beirut, Grenada or all Gulf Wars draft. I dodged that 1 with my buddy ted nugent. We just sat there crapping our pants over and over again. I would think ted was through but he just kept on crapping. Next thing I know this orange fellow came limping down the hall. He said boys my heels are killing me. It feels like stainless steel sand spurs in my feet. Believe me, and we did... believe him. Ted laughed and crapped his pants one more time.Then they sent us home. SAD

Come on now, that was funny. If you can't laugh at that you need to delete your account. 1 of my best short stories ever.

Why would any sane Christian want to serve in the Military since WWII when our military has been killing the weak, the poor, the disenfranchised, under the guise that nation building was a threat to America. I was taught not to kill. I have never killed another human being in my life. I have sinned, but I would NEVER volunteer to advance the profits of MIC under the guise that any of that service was noble or Christian. However, President Trump has no problem like Ted Cruz to carpet bomb civilians. I have never been able to understand this macho desire to kill people when America is not threatened by nation states, and we have a Criminal justice system to deal with criminals who want to blow things up. Two wrongs have never made a right.

polecat wrote:Thats right! I forgot all about the Beirut, Grenada or all Gulf Wars draft. I dodged that 1 with my buddy ted nugent. We just sat there crapping our pants over and over again. I would think ted was through but he just kept on crapping. Next thing I know this orange fellow came limping down the hall. He said boys my heels are killing me. It feels like stainless steel sand spurs in my feet. Believe me, and we did... believe him. Ted laughed and crapped his pants one more time.Then they sent us home. SAD

Nugent dodged the draft and enjoyed banging youngsters, two things he has in common with fake 45.

2seaoat wrote:Why would any sane Christian want to serve in the Military since WWII when our military has been killing the weak, the poor, the disenfranchised, under the guise that nation building was a threat to America.   I was taught not to kill.  I have never killed another human being in my life.   I have sinned, but I would NEVER volunteer to advance the profits of MIC under the guise that any of that service was noble or Christian.  However, President Trump has no problem like Ted Cruz to carpet bomb civilians.  I have never been able to understand this macho desire to kill people when America is not threatened by nation states, and we have a Criminal justice system to deal with criminals who want to blow things up.  Two wrongs have never made a right.

One of the reasons our latest military misadventures are not so successful is because the ROE doesn't (and hasn''t for quite some time) allow wanton destruction of civilians like WWII, to think otherwise is foolish. And BTW the Trumpster didn't advocate carpet bombing - Joe Biden lied about that and got caught - not that it really matters since I haven't seen a politician yet who doesn't lie.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/aug/02/joe-biden/joe-biden-wrong-say-donald-trump-has-called-carpet/

So trump never said bombing the chit out of ISIS....? Isis integrates with Civilians and the results have been obvious. Like the Viet Cong firing from a village off the Mekong river and our boats taking that village out.....it does not take long to see who the monsters were and are. This insanity stops when we stop honoring the military and war. It starts when we have realistic defense of this nation goals. The MIC goals of miltarism and expansive imperialism have nothing to do with defending this nation.

2seaoat, you fucking greedy coward! While kids your age were dying in Nam and other kids the same age were demonstrating and protesting all over the country, you did jackshit--other than act like nothing was happening.

Young men were burning their draft cards and vets were tossing their medals over the fence at the White House and what did you do, you gutless piece of shit? You got your degree and joined the Republican party.

You should be ashamed of yourself, you coward.

Too funny. We did not even have military objectives. It was one big cluster F which evolved to counting bodies to show success. Coward. Hell, who would have volunteered to join the military in the summer of 1970 with a 305 draft number.......a psychopath. As Ali said, there was not one Vietnamese citizen who threatened my family or my country which would justify me wanting to kill them. The only people who volunteered were poor kids with no options, and I never had to run from the draft because it was irrelevant, because I worked since I was 14 saving for college because I had options, and I chose one that did not involve counting bodies as a scorecard for American Imperialism and our trying to prop up French Colonialism and exploitation of the Vietnamese people.

The only people who went to Viet Nam were the losers from my class of 730 kids. They were the dopers, the drunks, the kids who were failing in school, and nobody died because out of our entire class only about six people served and about four of those went to Annapolis, West Point, and the Coast Guard. One of the biggest losers in my wife's school who was a drunk his entire high school career, volunteered, still a drunk who could not hold jobs, but got very active in the MIA movement and found a place for his failed life. They travel the country at conventions and get loaded......nothing changes. Sorry, war sucks. It causes harm to innocents. It should not be idolized as if the 99% who served never saw one second of sacrifice or combat, but got pay checks. I know that saying these thing makes me an awful person, but until war ends and our military is reduced, the horror of what we do continues. You wasted your life in some kind of walter mitty fantasy which does not recognize the reality that we killed millions of innocents for absolutely nothing.

You didn't do a goddamn thing to oppose the war, you gutless piece of shit--you didn't burn your draft card, you didn't go to Canada, you didn't even protest.

You didn't resist the war in any way and silence is assent. Some of those 58,000 names on that wall are there because YOU did nothing but milk your deferment, get your degree and join the Republican party.

My next door neighbor got drafted into the Viet Nam War. He worked in a kitchen in Viet Nam for two years. He came home and worked his dad's garage, and at 72 he still takes care of everybody's cars. He does not talk about the war much other than he never saw combat and worked fixing meals. He now volunteers for military funerals and is our volunteer fire chief. He was always a good man who was just a kid when he got drafted. There was no bravery. There was no cowardice. Just a small town kid who had no choice. He has lived a good life and puts his military service in the proper perspective.....not like these wanabee heroes who think killing people and fighting wars is macho, and that all things non military are wussified. Sorry, war sucks.

You didn't do a goddamn thing to oppose the war,

I was head of the young Republicans in my home town and went door to door to get Nixon elected who promised Americans peace. Burning draft cards when you have a 305 draft number, or before that a high school 1s draft card was not even remotely on my radar screen. I simply wanted America out of Viet Nam. If I knew that Nixon was breaking the Fricking law and telling the North Vietnamese that he would cut a better deal and undermining the Paris peace talks, I would never had worked for his election. Sorry pal, people were not spitting at vets where I lived, but simply wanted the killing of innocents to end. I had a couple lose a son in Viet Nam on my paper route, and the senseless nature of war did not make that kid or his family the target. It was the MIC and the war profiteering which turned my stomach by the time I was a senior in high school.
I was against the Viet Nam War only by the time I was a senior. Before that I had teachers in the reserves who would tells us the Vietnamese people were animals and they were not like us, they could live on a bowl of rice a day, and they wanted all Americans dead. A child finding that they had been lied to causes some fundamental changes.

The funny thing about those times is that young guys were thinking about getting laid more than wanting to be some kind of wannabee hero. Going off to college was like a wet dream for most kids as co-ed dorms and laker parties were way too much fun for a male with normal hormone levels. I had been working every week in high school to save enough to go to college. It was an exciting time of discovery and youth, but it did not involve the dark horrors of killing innocents, or going to a prostitute in a foreign land where all dignity had been drained from a people as we became ugly Americans. It was an entire generation questioning the taboos and morality of our parents who had no problem with

The protests had their place. They helped end the war. However, it was a wild and exciting time to be young, and most well adjusted males had goals and unbridled optimism about life which did not involve killing folks who had done nothing to them. The thing about the draft protests is that white privilege screamed.....we do not want to waste our lives on such cruelty.....and I was certainly part of white privilege, but having no downside risk of being drafted, I certainly was not running to Canada, or going to the streets. I believed in political change, and still do.

Sal wrote:

polecat wrote:Thats right! I forgot all about the Beirut, Grenada or all Gulf Wars draft. I dodged that 1 with my buddy ted nugent. We just sat there crapping our pants over and over again. I would think ted was through but he just kept on crapping. Next thing I know this orange fellow came limping down the hall. He said boys my heels are killing me. It feels like stainless steel sand spurs in my feet. Believe me, and we did... believe him. Ted laughed and crapped his pants one more time.Then they sent us home. SAD

Thanks Sal

2seaoat wrote:After watching documentaries on Viet Nam all morning, I am thinking about American Foreign policy and my life as it winds down.   The first lottery draft happened in December 1969.  I was a senior in high school and had registered for the draft at 16 and because I was a high school student my draft card said 1-s.  It was a high school student deferment.  I had been working since I was 14 and had saved up enough for all my room and board at a state University for a year and a half, and when the first December lottery happened, because I was a high school student I did not pay much attention thinking it applied to much older people.  Well my birthday was December 4, 1951 and I had just graduated from high school in June and was working 60 hours a week saving for college when the July draft was announced.  I did not think I was old enough to be in that draft because all my friends who were in my grade, were not in that lottery, but when I got home and they mentioned people born in 1951 was in this lottery I was totally surprised.  My high school deferment had passed and my new draft card was 1a and I realized that I might get drafted.  I got the number 305, and they were only going to 100, and I realized I would probably not be drafted.

I look back at how utterly stupid our presence was in Viet Nam as we expended twice the armaments we did in WWII giving record profits to MIC.  I think of these kids no different than me going up hamburger hill and being killed and maimed, only to desert the hill in a week  as the VC just retook the same.   It was insanity.  Yet, those who by the luck of a lottery did not go see it as an insane waste of humanity, and those who went see it as defending America.  I thought about T today.  He did not find what he did in Viet Nam as honorable.  He was the exception.  Yet, we honor people who fight wars and in that process we sanctify war.  I listened to heart wrenching stories of returning vets being yelled at by demonstrators, but the truth is that the millions of innocents we killed for absolutely no strategic reason concerning the defense of America were killed by American kids.

Today we can hear the propaganda.  The attempts to make China an aggressor.  The attempts to stoke the war drums with Korea.  We have never been a more vulnerable nation in the last 100 years because of this insistence to kneel and worship all things military while the MIC makes record profits by more sophisticated and complex weapons.  As I look back over the last 65 years nothing is more clear than the need to stand against the militarization of this nation.  We are becoming less safe, and we threaten the entire world with death and destruction of civilization.  It is not easy to announce these opinions among friends and neighbors, because a person will be attacked, but the time has come to speak the truth despite the consequences, the insanity must stop.

Let's have an Ode to Oatie and his sanctimonious schmuckery! It's not easy being a beacon of light and truth among a hovel of dullards. Speak your truth Oatieman... for the Gods are smiling upon you. You are the chosen one!

2seaoat wrote:My next door neighbor got drafted into the Viet Nam War.   He worked in a kitchen in Viet Nam for two years.

This is a bald-face LIE! In the Army, draftees only served 12 months incountry, 13 for the Marines. And yes, by '68 the Marines were drafting kids.

When you were drafted, you had to spend a total of two years in the service but you could re-up for an extra year to get a non-combat job. So, if your friend spent two years in 'Nam, he volunteered for an extra year in the service.

More to the point, however, your ignorance on this subject demonstrates your lack of interest in the lives of the guys getting drafted. All you cared about was your career, not the country or your fellow man.

You should go to D.C., visit The Wall and get down on your knees and beg those 58,000 ghosts for forgiveness.

2seaoat wrote:
The only people who went to Viet Nam were the losers from my class of 730 kids.  

No comment.

Frenger, Freddie Jr. wrote:

2seaoat wrote:
The only people who went to Viet Nam were the losers from my class of 730 kids.  

No comment.

Yeah, that was an awful thing to say especially about the one's who lost their lives. My late husband went to Viet Nam when he was 18 and came home w/ a Bronze Star for Valor and a Purple Heart. He then went to the University of Alabama and got his degree. I hate war just as much as anyone but to say they were losers is a little much. Oatie's just ashamed he didn't have the guts to go and is the real coward. Now he just gets on his soapbox and calls other people cowards while his voice is truth. Elmer Gantry reincarnated.