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Toyota bringing hydrogen car to the market...musk not happy
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2 Re: Toyota bringing hydrogen car to the market...musk not happy 12/22/2014, 12:25 am
ZVUGKTUBM
".....It also runs on the most abundant element in the universe and emits only heat and water..."
"......Fuel-cell vehicles such as the Mirai, Musk said, are “hydrocarbon-burning cars in disguise.....”
Mr. Musk is actually correct in his assertions......
Where does the hydrogen come from? It is too expensive and too energy intensive to crack hydrogen atoms from water. Commercial sources of hydrogen, which would also be used to fuel hydrogen fuel cells, are derived by separating it from natural gas. So, fuel-cell powered vehicles are still tied to fossil fuels.
However, this is another step away from liquid hydrocarbon fuels, which keep us tied to oil.
"......Fuel-cell vehicles such as the Mirai, Musk said, are “hydrocarbon-burning cars in disguise.....”
Mr. Musk is actually correct in his assertions......
Where does the hydrogen come from? It is too expensive and too energy intensive to crack hydrogen atoms from water. Commercial sources of hydrogen, which would also be used to fuel hydrogen fuel cells, are derived by separating it from natural gas. So, fuel-cell powered vehicles are still tied to fossil fuels.
However, this is another step away from liquid hydrocarbon fuels, which keep us tied to oil.
3 Re: Toyota bringing hydrogen car to the market...musk not happy 12/22/2014, 12:34 am
2seaoat
too energy intensive to crack hydrogen atoms from water.
I disagree. It is a perfect fit for Illinois wind turbines. They are currently being used as peaker plants. I drive by on some days when only 10% are running. If this excess capacity was directed by the utilities to crack hydrogen, it would be almost free. I used to crack hydrogen from water and it was simple and inexpensive other than the high use of electricity. When you have unused electrical capacity where the wind produces the hydrogen for almost nothing, it is a calculation which Toyoda has completely outsmarted Musk........Hydrogen can be cracked with renewable wind. Also, it is a perfect fit for garbage methane. Once an economy of scale develops, it will flourish as an alternative. People made the same criticism of the Prius hybrid technology fifteen years ago.......Toyoda has the capital and the brains to make this work.
I disagree. It is a perfect fit for Illinois wind turbines. They are currently being used as peaker plants. I drive by on some days when only 10% are running. If this excess capacity was directed by the utilities to crack hydrogen, it would be almost free. I used to crack hydrogen from water and it was simple and inexpensive other than the high use of electricity. When you have unused electrical capacity where the wind produces the hydrogen for almost nothing, it is a calculation which Toyoda has completely outsmarted Musk........Hydrogen can be cracked with renewable wind. Also, it is a perfect fit for garbage methane. Once an economy of scale develops, it will flourish as an alternative. People made the same criticism of the Prius hybrid technology fifteen years ago.......Toyoda has the capital and the brains to make this work.
4 Re: Toyota bringing hydrogen car to the market...musk not happy 12/22/2014, 1:09 am
Hospital Bob
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mirai
5 Re: Toyota bringing hydrogen car to the market...musk not happy 12/22/2014, 1:13 am
TEOTWAWKI
Sounds great ! What could go wrong ?
6 Re: Toyota bringing hydrogen car to the market...musk not happy 12/22/2014, 1:49 pm
ZVUGKTUBM
2seaoat wrote:too energy intensive to crack hydrogen atoms from water.
I disagree. It is a perfect fit for Illinois wind turbines. They are currently being used as peaker plants. I drive by on some days when only 10% are running. If this excess capacity was directed by the utilities to crack hydrogen, it would be almost free. I used to crack hydrogen from water and it was simple and inexpensive other than the high use of electricity. When you have unused electrical capacity where the wind produces the hydrogen for almost nothing, it is a calculation which Toyoda has completely outsmarted Musk........Hydrogen can be cracked with renewable wind. Also, it is a perfect fit for garbage methane. Once an economy of scale develops, it will flourish as an alternative. People made the same criticism of the Prius hybrid technology fifteen years ago.......Toyoda has the capital and the brains to make this work.
You are absolutely correct, Seaoat. Excess capacity from renewable sources can, in fact, be used to separate hydrogen from water. This is mentioned in one of the many books on energy I have read since about 2009. A guy was investing in wind turbines in rural Iowa, capturing the energy from the strong winds over the Plains. Only he was going to use the hydrogen to make ammonia for use by rural farmers.
The big elephant in the room is divorcing transportation from liquid hydrocarbon fuels. This will slow while oil is cheap, but the current low price for oil will not last forever.
I am still a believer in Peak Oil theory. After 2050, oil scarcity starts looming larger on the horizon again. Between 2070 and 2100 it will become acute. By 2100, we will be powered exclusively by electricity, with most of it generated by renewable sources--mostly solar.
They are even planning on having electric airliners in the future--powered by hydrogen fuel cells using superconducting technology (read about this in Aviation Week a few weeks ago).
7 Re: Toyota bringing hydrogen car to the market...musk not happy 12/22/2014, 4:05 pm
Hospital Bob
The economically practical consumer EV (electric vehicle) or hydrogen fueled consumer vehicle is a long way off.
Right now and for the foreseeable future, the only economically feasible alternative to ICE (internal combustion engine) cars are hybrids.
If you're only consideration is economics, it makes no sense to choose anything else as of yet. Either ICE or hybrid is all that makes sense.
And it's that category of car buyer who will determine where the market goes. Not the greenies.
Right now and for the foreseeable future, the only economically feasible alternative to ICE (internal combustion engine) cars are hybrids.
If you're only consideration is economics, it makes no sense to choose anything else as of yet. Either ICE or hybrid is all that makes sense.
And it's that category of car buyer who will determine where the market goes. Not the greenies.
8 Re: Toyota bringing hydrogen car to the market...musk not happy 12/22/2014, 4:24 pm
ZVUGKTUBM
The economically practical consumer EV (electric vehicle) or hydrogen fueled consumer vehicle is a long way off.
True. The book I talked about above addresses this, saying that EVs will cost more than traditional vehicles, and that the lower classes will one day be priced out of driving because of it.
When you consider that post 2050 or so, most vehicles will be driverless and traffic will flow seamlessly without traffic lights or stop signs, the vehicle technology used today might not even be allowed on the road then.
True. The book I talked about above addresses this, saying that EVs will cost more than traditional vehicles, and that the lower classes will one day be priced out of driving because of it.
When you consider that post 2050 or so, most vehicles will be driverless and traffic will flow seamlessly without traffic lights or stop signs, the vehicle technology used today might not even be allowed on the road then.
9 Re: Toyota bringing hydrogen car to the market...musk not happy 12/22/2014, 4:30 pm
Hospital Bob
If I had to guess, I would sum this up as a Toyoda heir who is a filthy rich spoiled type who has an obsession with the hydrogen design and what makes him different from the rest of the alternative energy car buffs is that he has many billions of dollars at his disposal to turn hobbies into realities. In other words, he wants to see his dream fulfilled. He knows how limited the early adopter market will be for this and doesn't care. He wants to be the Elon Musk of Japan and use his money to push up the time frame on all this. And there's no doubt it's a good thing for all of us. Because anytime the profits are devoted to R&D is when things get changed for the better.
10 Re: Toyota bringing hydrogen car to the market...musk not happy 12/22/2014, 4:45 pm
ZVUGKTUBM
Well, even though I follow oil and gas development, and have interests in such, I do recognize the need to move beyond petroleum.
My views are not shaped by the climate-change arguments. My views are driven because wars have been fought over oil, and when resources become limited, nations will fight over those resources. We need to move beyond oil to help keep the peace.
The future for the world is an electric one that is powered by the sun and other non-fossil fuel sources.
My views are not shaped by the climate-change arguments. My views are driven because wars have been fought over oil, and when resources become limited, nations will fight over those resources. We need to move beyond oil to help keep the peace.
The future for the world is an electric one that is powered by the sun and other non-fossil fuel sources.
11 Re: Toyota bringing hydrogen car to the market...musk not happy 12/22/2014, 5:47 pm
Hospital Bob
ZVUGKTUBM wrote:
The future for the world is an electric one that is powered by the sun... [/color]
That future will be harnessing star light and turning it into electrcity.
BUT it could also mean learning how to feasibly (cost effectively) duplicate the star's heat engine here on Earth and using that to make electricity (back to hydrogen again LOL).
12 Re: Toyota bringing hydrogen car to the market...musk not happy 12/22/2014, 5:52 pm
2seaoat
The hydrogen Toyota car will surprise some people.
13 Re: Toyota bringing hydrogen car to the market...musk not happy 12/22/2014, 6:56 pm
ZVUGKTUBM
Bob wrote:BUT it could also mean learning how to feasibly (cost effectively) duplicate the star's heat engine here on Earth
The fusion reactor is nearing reality. Lockheed Martin is working on the technology right now. There are lots of ways to make electricity without using coal, natural gas, or oil.
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