Stephen Hawking Black Hole Paradox

http://guardianlv.com/2014/01/stephen-hawking-claims-there-are-no-black-holes/

Damn . . . . made my head hurt . . .

Event horizons can do that... lol.

PkrBum wrote:Event horizons can do that... lol.

Si senor', the level of chaos makes it more difficult to determine whether entrophy exists I suppose. My head still hurts! lol

Can either of ya'll help us get a grasp on what all this means?
I would like to have some understanding of it because it is fascinating but the writer is not communicating it in a way which folks who don't speak her language can understand.

Bob wrote:Can either of ya'll help us get a grasp on what all this means?
I would like to have some understanding of it because it is fascinating but the writer is not communicating it in a way which folks who don't speak her language can understand.

  

This might be an easy place to start... the sub links hopefully better explain things that need more background.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrophysics

Quantum physics . . . randomness has order . . . a contradiction to most.

knothead wrote:Quantum physics . . . randomness has order . . . a contradiction to most.

That quantum stuff is so bizarre. It lost me when they told me a quantum particle is located somewhere, but when you try to measure it or look at it the damn thing is located somewhere else.
That would be like if you were in P'Cola. But when I looked at you, you would then be in Chipley.

Without even comprehending it though, it does give some food for thought in a way not intended.

For decades now, science has been all abuzz about black holes and all the potential they hold for us. Even that they could provide instantaneous space travel throughout the galaxy. Actually provide us a way to visit other worlds and their inhabitants. Or permit inhabitants of other worlds to visit us.
Black holes have even figured into movie stories. Hell I even owned a pinball machine called Black Hole...



And now we're told the darn things don't even exist? That it was all just in somebody's imagination like some people imagined that Jesus of Nazareth rose from the dead? Or that the Ayatollah imagines that we're gonna get to have sex with 77 virgins in a place called "heaven"?

And speaking of that, and I promise not to go off-topic in this thread again. But what does the Ayatollah say will happen to women who go to heaven? Will their 77 virgins be men? All I've ever heard Mohammed and the Ayatollah talk about is the 77 virgins being girls. So if a woman goes to their heaven will she have to engage in lesbian sex? That would seem kinda odd wouldn't it when Mohammed and the Ayatollah tell us they don't approve of that.

I gotta tell you. I'm just not sure science or religion either one is ever gonna be able to figure out what this existence thing is all about. But I do commend both for trying.

It's most likely a Republican obstructionist and Bush plot to undermine the scientific community if you ask FT and the other supposedly enlightened progressive liberals around here.

*****CHUCKLE*****

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAgnJDJN4VA

  

Go off topic all you want... doesn't bother me. That's a cool looking pinball machine... I'd pick it out of a line to play.

The travel you talked about is probably wormholes... black holes have such incredible density that the gravity was thght to make it impossible for anything to escape. We've slowly seen contradictions though from emissions. But back to the wormhole... the theory came from einstein... when things are as eminence in mass and then gravity that they actually warp the fabric of space (time is used too... but I don't want to complicate it) it's thght you could use the effect to warp that fabric into an actual fold... like a piece of paper when you fold it in half and the opposite corners meet. Oh well... just fun stuff to think about... we are infants in understanding the earth... much less the cosmos.

PkrBum wrote: we are infants in understanding the earth... much less the cosmos.

We've got a long way to go to get to the infant stage. I'd say when it comes to understanding the cosmos, we're at about the intellectual stage of an amoeba. Give us a billion or two more years and we'll be at infant status.

Sorry about getting the different holes mixed up. That's been the story of my life. lol

But if you're into the worm variety, this should tickle your fancy...



p.s. sorry for being so flippant. I love reading about it all too. I just have such a mental block when trying to comprehend advanced physics and especially advanced theoretical physics, that it doesn't come easy for me.
But what you said in your last post does get through to me a little. And I'll definitely check out that primer link you provided.

PkrBum wrote:

The travel you talked about is probably wormholes

Pkr,

I did get the two terms confused.  But it got me to remembering something.
I occasionally watch the tv series "Through the Wormhole" (narrated by Morgan Freeman).  
I watched an episode recently called "Death of the Sun".  It revealed that scientists are already attempting to devise ways for humans to escape Earth before the aging Sun destroys our planet (in about 5 billion years).  Here's a 2-minute youtube explaining how it will happen...



The same episode outlines various methods to save humanity before that happens.  And one obvious way is for us to build a giant "noah's ark" which will allow many of us to escape beforehand.

Some have proposed a rather novel form of propulsion for that giant spacecraft.  They call it a "Black Hole Starship".  And it makes use of Hawking radiation and an artificially created black hole to propel the vehicle.  As explained here...

Getting the black hole to act as a power source and engine also requires a way to convert the Hawking radiation into energy and thrust. One potential method involves placing the hole at the focal point of a parabolic reflector attached to the ship, creating forward thrust. A slightly easier, but less efficient method would involve simply absorbing all the gamma radiation heading towards the fore of the ship, and let the rest shoot out the back to push you onwards

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_starship





Although of course if Hawking's latest claim is correct,  I guess that means all this just went out the window.  lol

The sun may even nudge us out instead of just over taking us... though unstable orbits are likely doom too. The sun is also increasing in temperature... like a degree every million or ten million years or something. I love the theoretical propulsions... interesting stuff. Most of the energy required is to simply escape the earth.

One other proposal to save the Earth on that show was really mind-boggling in it's scope.
The basic idea is to alter the course of an asteroid so that it makes a very close-by encounter with the Earth.  Each time it makes that close-by pass,  it will have the effect of pushing the Earth's orbit a few miles further from the Sun.  Some egghead has actually calculated that it will require enough passes of the asteroid that it will take  a million years of moving the Earth orbit outward to get the Earth far enough away from the Sun to save the planet.  And at the same time keep it close enough to the sun to still support human habitation.  
But it's very very risky.  Because if the plan doesn't go perfectly for that whole million years,  and a miscalulation causes the asteroid to unintentionally collide with the Earth,  the asteroid would be large enough that a collision itself would be catastrophic and possibly even result in human extinction.

Really wild stuff.  But of course all of this is based on the knowledge and technology we have now.  And if we can survive for the next 5 billion years,  at that point we may have already discovered what are now inconceivable ways to abandon the Earth long before that.  Or even to stop the decay of the Sun.  Or who knows what all else.

Personally,  I think we first better focus our attention on how to keep the Earth a livable human habitat for the near future and forget the pie-in-the-sky stuff for now.  I think right now the goal should be finding ways to keep the human species extant for even the next hundred years.

I was listening to npr I think about what a massive cme would do to the modern world... Teo's fema camp might get crowded.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronal_mass_ejection

The largest recorded geomagnetic perturbation, resulting presumably from a CME, coincided with the first-observed solar flare on 1 September 1859, and is now referred to as the Carrington Event, or the solar storm of 1859. The flare and the associated sunspots were visible to the naked eye (both as the flare itself appearing on a projection of the sun on a screen and as an aggregate brightening of the solar disc), and the flare was independently observed by English astronomers R. C. Carrington and R. Hodgson. The geomagnetic storm was observed with the recording magnetograph at Kew Gardens. The same instrument recorded a crochet, an instantaneous perturbation of the Earth's ionosphere by ionizing soft X-rays. This could not easily be understood at the time because it predated the discovery of X-rays by Röntgen and the recognition of the ionosphere by Kennelly and Heaviside. The storm took down parts of the recently created US telegraph network, starting fires and shocking some telegraph operators.

PkrBum wrote: 1859

it predated the discovery of X-rays

The storm took down parts of the recently created US telegraph network

Let's cherry pick out those three parts of your post,  first consider each separately,  then take them collectively,  and see where that takes us.

One,  we're talking about an event which occurred only a lousy piddling 150 years ago.  Within the whole long scope of human civilization,  that's like five minutes ago (could be considerably less but I'd have to do the math).

Secondly,   as late as "five minutes ago", human beings had no conception and no understanding whatsoever of an event of it's kind.

Lastly,  it took down the only fast means of communication we had,  crippling our ability to communicate.   Instantly setting us back in time.

The question then becomes,  what can we expect in the next "five minutes"?  Or the next "hour"?   And remember, in these terms,  that future "hour" actually represents the next 1800 years. (are you following me here)

I'm afraid the answer is,  we better expect to experience so many unknowns,  each of which could wreak havoc on whatever progress we've made up to that point,  that it not only boggles the mind,  it boggles the boggles of the mind.  And then some.

And by the way,  so far we're only talking about the roadblocks NATURE could throw up in front of us.
We aren't even considering what nightmares our own advances in technology might put in front of us.  Because at this point,   we have no conception yet of what that might be either.
And if the past is in any lesson,  I have to think that's gonna be a worse monster for us to have to deal with than nature.

I just wish I could be around to witness it all.  It's like going to a movie,  getting the milk duds out of my pocket and eating them,  and then having to be kicked out of the theater after seeing only the first "5 minutes" (because seaoat turned me in LOL).  And never knowing how the movie ends.

I'm afraid the answer is, we better expect to experience so many unknowns, each of which could wreak havoc on whatever progress we've made up to that point, that it not only boggles the mind, it boggles the boggles of the mind. And then some.

Your point was well stated as well as thought provoking . . . . . now I have the mother-of-all-headaches!! LOL
Good post pkr.

I just love it when you guys have this kind of discussion.