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American History for Truthdiggers: Bill Clinton, the 'New Democrat'

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Floridatexan

Floridatexan

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/american-history-for-truthdiggers-bill-clinton-the-new-democrat/#

bigdog


Well, I'm sure that was sent directly to me. This is the only sentence in your article that had any real meaning to it, and was the primary reason for all the other actions described in the article:

The number of Democrats who supported or acquiesced to such discriminatory legislation demonstrated the prevailing and persistent social conservatism of the times.

Bill Clinton, it was often said, governed by polls. 
I prefer to alter that sentence because what it actually says is, Bill Clinton governed by the will of the American people who put him into office.  All of them, not of the minority like Donald Trump.

I'll let you look up his amazingly high approval ratings, even in the midst of impeachment and on the day he left office. I think you know what they were. 

I'm not going to feed your desire to make this a thread where you and I argue about Clinton. History has made its judgment on his administration and it's considered a very good one. I think only one American was killed in a military conflict during his 8 years in office. The economy was better at the end of his administration than it had been in many, many years. 
You can spend your life sitting around hating popular presidents if you want to, but you can't change the judgment of history.


So have fun. I choose not to play.

I will say though, that the article praises the "great presidents" FDR and JFK, and I would never argue that they weren't two of our greatest presidents in history. But there were Polish people back in WWII who weren't too fond of FDR, and Japanese Americans in Internment Camps that weren't too fond of FDR either. He made his own mistakes. I would never criticize JFK, because I do not believe the country would exist today without his actions during the Cuban Missile Crisis. In fact, mankind might not be here. But he was a womanizer from the word go, his brother Bobby had to tear him away from his friends in the Mafia who helped him get elected, and he could have passed the same civil rights legislation that LBJ did but chose not to. Even with all that,  I suspect most people of my generation would say he was the best president in our lifetimes.
He could say a few words and make you think you could change the world by yourself if you tried hard enough. When we took our kids to his grave in Arlington, and my son asked why nobody was at any of the graves of the other presidents, they were all lined up at JFK's, that's exactly what I told him.  Barack Obama was close to the speaker JFK was, but not quite as good. 

Once more, a little good and a little bad.


And that's the problem with progressives. You've got to label everybody one way or the other, good or evil, based on your standards and no one elses. So far, Donald Trump is the only totally evil person we've ever had in the White House, that I can see anyway. In fact, he's one of the few totally evil people I've ever known of. He's unique.

Most people say Bill Clinton was a good president. Sorry your standards are so much higher.

Floridatexan

Floridatexan

I think you have an overpowering urge to be right...that's a sign of weakness, not strength.

I often wondered why Bill Clinton surged to the right after his election. I thought at the time that he was trying to mollify Republicans, who attacked him constantly...the same way they did with Obama, except of course, for the racial animus. Now I think he was just playing political hardball...trying to co-opt and preempt the Republicans of that time. The big losers were the people who had to suffer the effects of those policies. We don't need that in the Democratic Party...not now and not ever.

bigdog


Floridatexan wrote:
I think you have an overpowering urge to be right...that's a sign of weakness, not strength.  

I often wondered why Bill Clinton surged to the right after his election.  I thought at the time that he was trying to mollify Republicans, who attacked him constantly...the same way they did with Obama, except of course, for the racial animus.  Now I think he was just playing political hardball...trying to co-opt and preempt the Republicans of that time.  The big losers were the people who had to suffer the effects of those policies.  We don't need that in the Democratic Party...not now and not ever.
I really don't know how you managed to vote for Hillary, since you hated Bill so much.
I don't think I'm confused, or have an overpowering urge to be right. You respond to my posts every time I make one, just like I respond to yours. So, maybe it's you that has an overpowering urge to be right.
Remember, 50 years ago I took that psychology class in college, so everybody has to assume I'm an authority on human thinking. Very Happy 
Dang, I actually took 3 psych courses, come to think of it. I must be a living, breathing genius in the field.

Don't try and analyze me. I can promise you, you'll only become more confused. If you could ask anyone who actually knows me, they will tell you that I am difficult to get to know. It takes a little work. And I don't think you're that interested, because you need everybody to fit into some box or the other. 
And you don't have the authority to say who is a good Democrat and who is not. Democrats are totally allowed to think for themselves. We don't have to follow anyone else's agenda.
We are not Republicans. They don't have that right.

Statements like this one that you just made are extremely divisive as well as just positively irksome.  

"We don't need that in the Democratic Party...not now and not ever."

You're not allowed to proclaim yourself the Royal "We."
That would be Donald Trump's attitude over his party. 
All the "we's" in the Democratic party get to have a say. Like it or not.

RealLindaL


Very well said, bigdog -- in all respects.

Telstar

Telstar



lol!

Floridatexan

Floridatexan
bigdog wrote:
Floridatexan wrote:
I think you have an overpowering urge to be right...that's a sign of weakness, not strength.  

I often wondered why Bill Clinton surged to the right after his election.  I thought at the time that he was trying to mollify Republicans, who attacked him constantly...the same way they did with Obama, except of course, for the racial animus.  Now I think he was just playing political hardball...trying to co-opt and preempt the Republicans of that time.  The big losers were the people who had to suffer the effects of those policies.  We don't need that in the Democratic Party...not now and not ever.
I really don't know how you managed to vote for Hillary, since you hated Bill so much.
I don't think I'm confused, or have an overpowering urge to be right. You respond to my posts every time I make one, just like I respond to yours. So, maybe it's you that has an overpowering urge to be right.
Remember, 50 years ago I took that psychology class in college, so everybody has to assume I'm an authority on human thinking. Very Happy 
Dang, I actually took 3 psych courses, come to think of it. I must be a living, breathing genius in the field.

Don't try and analyze me. I can promise you, you'll only become more confused. If you could ask anyone who actually knows me, they will tell you that I am difficult to get to know. It takes a little work. And I don't think you're that interested, because you need everybody to fit into some box or the other. 
And you don't have the authority to say who is a good Democrat and who is not. Democrats are totally allowed to think for themselves. We don't have to follow anyone else's agenda.
We are not Republicans. They don't have that right.

Statements like this one that you just made are extremely divisive as well as just positively irksome.  

"We don't need that in the Democratic Party...not now and not ever."

You're not allowed to proclaim yourself the Royal "We."
That would be Donald Trump's attitude over his party. 
All the "we's" in the Democratic party get to have a say. Like it or not.

I never said I hated Bill Clinton, and in fact, I voted for him twice.

It may be a big tent, but there's no room for Republican lite.

Telstar

Telstar
Floridatexan wrote:
bigdog wrote:
Floridatexan wrote:
I think you have an overpowering urge to be right...that's a sign of weakness, not strength.  

I often wondered why Bill Clinton surged to the right after his election.  I thought at the time that he was trying to mollify Republicans, who attacked him constantly...the same way they did with Obama, except of course, for the racial animus.  Now I think he was just playing political hardball...trying to co-opt and preempt the Republicans of that time.  The big losers were the people who had to suffer the effects of those policies.  We don't need that in the Democratic Party...not now and not ever.
I really don't know how you managed to vote for Hillary, since you hated Bill so much.
I don't think I'm confused, or have an overpowering urge to be right. You respond to my posts every time I make one, just like I respond to yours. So, maybe it's you that has an overpowering urge to be right.
Remember, 50 years ago I took that psychology class in college, so everybody has to assume I'm an authority on human thinking. Very Happy 
Dang, I actually took 3 psych courses, come to think of it. I must be a living, breathing genius in the field.

Don't try and analyze me. I can promise you, you'll only become more confused. If you could ask anyone who actually knows me, they will tell you that I am difficult to get to know. It takes a little work. And I don't think you're that interested, because you need everybody to fit into some box or the other. 
And you don't have the authority to say who is a good Democrat and who is not. Democrats are totally allowed to think for themselves. We don't have to follow anyone else's agenda.
We are not Republicans. They don't have that right.

Statements like this one that you just made are extremely divisive as well as just positively irksome.  

"We don't need that in the Democratic Party...not now and not ever."

You're not allowed to proclaim yourself the Royal "We."
That would be Donald Trump's attitude over his party. 
All the "we's" in the Democratic party get to have a say. Like it or not.

I never said I hated Bill Clinton, and in fact, I voted for him twice.

It may be a big tent, but there's no room for Republican lite.





Very well said. The only good Republican, is a gone Republican.

bigdog


Honey Child, if "republican light" as you  want to call Centrists vote to get rid of Donald Trump in 2020, you'd better bow down and kiss our asses.

Because YOU PROGRESSIVES don't have the votes to do it by yourselves. 
Centrists staying home equals a Trump victory.

That's a fact.

You're not helping your case by making the comments you're making on this forum. All that does is convince me you've gone all the way to the left and fallen off a cliff.

bigdog


I thought you might need some statistics, since y'all seem to believe you can win this election all by yourselves.

43% of the entire American electorate are either Centrists or Independents.

https://medium.com/@kentkroeger3/why-much-of-what-we-think-about-the-democratic-party-is-wrong-ab8c041fd138

And as the article states, YES, they matter. They can sway any national election in any direction they decide to go. 
So go ahead and insult the very people who will be helping get rid of Donald Trump, in fact, the very people who will DECIDE whether you can get rid of Donald Trump to get your progressive agenda going or not. 
Bite the hands that feed you, children.

Baby Boomers know better because we've lived longer and have had to face reality a few more times than your generation has. 
You're totally incapable of it.

Floridatexan

Floridatexan
bigdog wrote:Honey Child, if "republican light" as you  want to call Centrists vote to get rid of Donald Trump in 2020, you'd better bow down and kiss our asses.

Because YOU PROGRESSIVES don't have the votes to do it by yourselves. 
Centrists staying home equals a Trump victory.

That's a fact.

You're not helping your case by making the comments you're making on this forum. All that does is convince me you've gone all the way to the left and fallen off a cliff.

EFF OFF, dumbass. Who exactly do you think you're addressing?

bigdog


I'm addressing you, since it's YOU that wants to call me "republican lite" every time you post.
You talking about something that revs up my anger that's it. Especially when I know that last election I did phone banking for Andrew Gillum for governor, the election before that I walked out in the rain visiting people's house canvassing for Hillary, that I manned a booth at our Music Festival for John Kerry, and a booth at Earth Day for John Edwards, and went to South Florida as a state delegate for Wes Clark (all in one election cycle, btw) And I also campaigned for Al gore, fyi, and WHAT THE HELL HAVE YOU DONE EXCEPT SIT ON THIS FORUM AND CALL PEOPLE NAMES?

Don't call me a fucking republican again until you can prove you are a democrat to me, I haven't seen any proof. All I've seen is someone who thinks she can pick and choose who she wants to be in "HER" little idea of the Democratic party while she sits at home dreaming about the day AOC will be led into the White House without even having to be elected.
Show me your resume lady, or stop with the Republican comments. I don't appreciate them one iota and neither would you. Do you not realize that calling someone a republican today is implying they agree with putting children in cages, with making blatant racist comments and acting on their racist impulses, with taking away Americans health insurance, and with supporting a man who is almost demonic in his every thought and movement?
So shut the fuck up with the Republican accusations. 
I know who I'm talking to when I talk to you. It's the kind of person who would ask me "who do you think you're talking to" without one iota of proof of who the hell she is. 

It's not who I think I am, it's who I know I am. It's somebody that doesn't take crap from strangers on an internet forum.

You could be the forum moderator as far as I know, but if you are, you're not a good one, because all you do is insult anyone that disagrees with you. Of course, that's when you're not telling other people to not speak to posters that disagree with you. How very "free speech" of you. Not very Democratic of you though. 
One more time, show me your resume as a Democrat or shut up with the Republican crap.

Floridatexan

Floridatexan
bigdog wrote:I'm addressing you, since it's YOU that wants to call me "republican lite" every time you post.
You talking about something that revs up my anger that's it. Especially when I know that last election I did phone banking for Andrew Gillum for governor, the election before that I walked out in the rain visiting people's house canvassing for Hillary, that I manned a booth at our Music Festival for John Kerry, and a booth at Earth Day for John Edwards, and went to South Florida as a state delegate for Wes Clark (all in one election cycle, btw) And I also campaigned for Al gore, fyi, and WHAT THE HELL HAVE YOU DONE EXCEPT SIT ON THIS FORUM AND CALL PEOPLE NAMES?

Don't call me a fucking republican again until you can prove you are a democrat to me, I haven't seen any proof. All I've seen is someone who thinks she can pick and choose who she wants to be in "HER" little idea of the Democratic party while she sits at home dreaming about the day AOC will be led into the White House without even having to be elected.
Show me your resume lady, or stop with the Republican comments. I don't appreciate them one iota and neither would you.
So shut the fuck up.
I know who I'm talking to when I talk to you. It's the kind of person who would ask me "who do you think you're talking to" without one iota of proof of who the hell she is. 

It's not who I think I am, it's who I know I am. It's somebody that doesn't take crap from strangers on an internet forum.

You could be the forum moderator as far as I know, but if you are, you're not a good one, because all you do is insult anyone that disagrees with you. Of course, that's when you're not telling other people to not speak to posters that disagree with you. How very "free speech" of you. Not very Democratic of you though. 
One more time, show me your resume as a Democrat or shut up with the Republican crap.

I don't have to show you anything at all. The fact that you don't know who I am confirms what you said yourself...your memory sucks. I've been here all along, while you have come and gone with various identities. Mine hasn't changed one iota for years. And it will be a cold day in hell before I come near that slimy ass.

bigdog


I remember who you are, and I remember you've been here for years. At one time, we got along quite well.

But when you imply that I am no better than  a member of a political group that locks babies in cages, that cuts it with me. Calling me a Republican is the last straw as far as any civility in conversation that I can manage with you.

You never shared any personal information on even the old forum, and, apparently, you have nothing to brag about now. 
You can just be like Seaoat, I suppose, and spend years telling people they'd all know who he really was someday, and would recognize his name because he was well known. Then he passes, and no one still knows anything about him. He was a pretty good guy though, and didn't go around calling people by names they'd asked him not to use on more than one occasion. 
You can't help yourself, apparently, no self restraint at all. 
I don't need any help, I know who I am. I'm not a Republican.I'm also not ashamed that I was one 30 years ago. It's called changing with the times, learning and growing. I'm sorry you can't deal with anyone who has done that, nor do you have the ability to apologize for name calling when you've been asked to stop 4 or 5 times now. 
That's harassment, which is what insecure folks like the Donald do.
Did you ever notice?.

Floridatexan

Floridatexan
bigdog wrote:I remember who you are, and I remember you've been here for years. At one time, we got along quite well.

But when you imply that I am no better than  a member of a political group that locks babies in cages, that cuts it with me. Calling me a Republican is the last straw as far as any civility in conversation that I can manage with you.

You never shared any personal information on even the old forum, and, apparently, you have nothing to brag about now. 
You can just be like Seaoat, I suppose, and spend years telling people they'd all know who he really was someday, and would recognize his name because he was well known. Then he passes, and no one still knows anything about him. He was a pretty good guy though, and didn't go around calling people by names they'd asked him not to use on more than one occasion. 
You can't help yourself, apparently, no self restraint at all. 
I don't need any help, I know who I am. I'm not a Republican.I'm also not ashamed that I was one 30 years ago. It's called changing with the times, learning and growing. I'm sorry you can't deal with anyone who has done that, nor do you have the ability to apologize for name calling when you've been asked to stop 4 or 5 times now. 
That's harassment, which is what insecure folks like the Donald do.
Did you ever notice?.

That is classic projection. You do know what that is, right? I remember defending you on several occasions. I could relate and felt at the time that you were being targeted. But at some point, we disagreed, and it got worse over time until you lost my trust. Also, I don't admire fence-sitters. Or people who think the status quo is good enough.

bigdog


I don't care whether you admire me as a "fence Sitter" or not. I don't sit on the fence on any issue that  can think of, I have definite opinions on pretty much every issue. Unlike Democrats, I believe in the Death Penalty, I favor people being able to keep handguns but not assault weapons, and I think Bill Clinton's welfare reform program was an excellent idea. That's based on the experience of having been a welfare worker, btw, so you can have your opinion too, but I have more experience in that field than you do, I'm  fairly sure of that. I disagreed with Clinton on Waco and several other things. 
Unlike both Republicans and Democrats, I don't believe in American Exceptionalism, that God blesses us or cares about us one iota more than he does the people in Somalia or Brazil or any other nation. I don't think he cares about nations or their boundaries at all. 
Unlike both Republicans and Dems, I think all drugs should be legalized and those who have problems should be treated and not punished. I think the government is having a hissy fit over opiates and all it's doing is keeping people who really need them from getting them. 
But  as for being "like Republicans," there's almost nothing I agree with. 
I don't know what you got angry about on the old forum and I don't give a damn. Yeah, I used different names on that forum, and so did a lot of other people. It took about 5 minutes for someone to figure out who I was every time  I posted though, so it didn't really matter. I often changed names to simply be left alone for a short minute or two over there.
I have no intention of apologizing for anything over there that you objected to, because, first of all, that's supposed to be off limits. Secondly, I have never been untrue to myself and have nothing to apologize for. 
It was a very bad situation with a sad ending but I have no reason to dwell on it anymore and don't plan to pretend I feel guilty, thanks very much.
And since you think I've forgotten stuff from back then, no, not most of it. I'm still the only one on this forum or any forum anywhere who knows exactly what it was  all about and why it was ultimately  unavoidable.  
I'll no doubt be contradicted on that, But whatever you have from back then you really need to get rid of. I've been rid of it for several years now, and anybody with any emotional baggage from way back then definitely needs some help.

Floridatexan

Floridatexan
bigdog wrote:I don't care whether you admire me as a "fence Sitter" or not. I don't sit on the fence on any issue that  can think of, I have definite opinions on pretty much every issue. Unlike Democrats, I believe in the Death Penalty, I favor people being able to keep handguns but not assault weapons, and I think Bill Clinton's welfare reform program was an excellent idea. That's based on the experience of having been a welfare worker, btw, so you can have your opinion too, but I have more experience in that field than you do, I'm  fairly sure of that. I disagreed with Clinton on Waco and several other things. 
Unlike both Republicans and Democrats, I don't believe in American Exceptionalism, that God blesses us or cares about us one iota more than he does the people in Somalia or Brazil or any other nation. I don't think he cares about nations or their boundaries at all. 
Unlike both Republicans and Dems, I think all drugs should be legalized and those who have problems should be treated and not punished. I think the government is having a hissy fit over opiates and all it's doing is keeping people who really need them from getting them. 
But  as for being "like Republicans," there's almost nothing I agree with. 
I don't know what you got angry about on the old forum and I don't give a damn. Yeah, I used different names on that forum, and so did a lot of other people. It took about 5 minutes for someone to figure out who I was every time  I posted though, so it didn't really matter. I often changed names to simply be left alone for a short minute or two over there.
I have no intention of apologizing for anything over there that you objected to, because, first of all, that's supposed to be off limits. Secondly, I have never been untrue to myself and have nothing to apologize for. 
It was a very bad situation with a sad ending but I have no reason to dwell on it anymore and don't plan to pretend I feel guilty, thanks very much.
And since you think I've forgotten stuff from back then, no, not most of it. I'm still the only one on this forum or any forum anywhere who knows exactly what it was  all about and why it was ultimately  unavoidable.  
I'll no doubt be contradicted on that, But whatever you have from back then you really need to get rid of. I've been rid of it for several years now, and anybody with any emotional baggage from way back then definitely needs some help.

I don't care about that, either. I think it was the Trayvon Martin case that really appalled me. And a few statements you made about DCF. You seem to think the police are infallible. I don't have "emotional baggage" from your issues with inheritance. I defended you at the time, which I later came to regret.

bigdog


Well, your memory sucks too then, because I've always said Trayvon Martin was murdered that night. 
I don't think I've ever defended the police on this forum for any of their violent actions against unarmed Americans.
When they choke a man to death for selling cigarettes on a street corner, that's murder too. 


In both those instances, innocent people died for no reason. I know I've said repeatedly that George HW Bush getting a law passed so police can seize the assets of people who haven't been convicted of any crime had made criminals and thieves out of our police forces. That's one  reason I left the Republican party. 
I think I've said probably a hundred times on this forum that police and soldiers are not my heroes, firemen are. I'll bet I've said it sometime over the last few days, in fact. If you've been reading, you'd know that. 
I know I said back then that all soldiers were not heroes, and I made a lot of enemies over that one. 

Anyway,  it seems to me like your memory is pretty bad too, because I don't remember you ever acting like you were annoyed with me at all. 
One of us is definitely remembering wrong.

As for DCF, I don't remember ever talking about them at all on the old forum. I fully admire DCF workers, maybe that's what you got angry about. They have some of the hardest jobs in the country and everyone out there hates them for it. The average career life of a new social worker at DCF is about 2 years before burnout occurs. That's one of the reasons I was not sad to leave my job after I got pregnant and had a good reason.  I'd come to hate the place. 
DCF workers are human beings and all they can do is the best they can do, and every time some SOB murders his own child, somebody blames DCF for not having taken the child away. It's an awful job.

I definitely think it's you that has the memory problem in this instance.

And I know for a fact that if you still believe that argument, way back when, had anything to do with inheritance, you still don't know anything. And you never will.

bigdog


I just checked WAAAAY back on the forum. I challenge you to find one sentence regarding Trayvon Martin where we disagreed in any way.
You disagreed with Neko, and Joanie, and Dreams, but not with me. I have a suspicion it's Dreams you're thinking about on the police issue too.

Good luck if you take up my challenge.
I promise you, you won't find a thing.

RealLindaL


Hmm...sounds as if someone might just owe someone else an apology....

polecat

polecat
American History for Truthdiggers: Bill Clinton, the 'New Democrat' 66426210

bigdog


polecat wrote:American History for Truthdiggers: Bill Clinton, the 'New Democrat' 66426210
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