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Democrats Debate lineup

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1Democrats Debate lineup Empty Democrats Debate lineup on 6/14/2019, 1:06 pm

othershoe1030

othershoe1030
The first 2020 debate is scheduled for June 26 and 27, and NBC, the Democratic committee's media partner for the first debate, just announced which candidates will appear each night.

Here's who will take the stage on the first night:

Massachusetts Sen. Elizabeth Warren
Former Texas Rep. Beto O'Rourke
New Jersey Sen. Cory Booker
Former Housing and Urban Development Secretary Julian Castro
Hawaii Rep. Tulsi Gabbard
Washington Gov. Jay Inslee
Minnesota Sen. Amy Klobuchar
New York Mayor Bill de Blasio
Former Maryland Rep. John Delaney
Ohio Rep. Tim Ryan
And these are the candidates debating on the second:

Former Vice President Joe Biden
Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders
South Bend, Indiana, Mayor Pete Buttigieg
California Sen. Kamala Harris
New York Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand
Colorado Sen. Michael Bennet
Author Marianne Williamson
California Rep. Eric Swalwell
Businessman Andrew Yang
Former Colorado Gov. John Hickenlooper

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/first-2020-debate-order/index.html

2Democrats Debate lineup Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup on 6/14/2019, 2:09 pm

zsomething


That's gonna look like a battle royale, all those people.

I like all of our candidates to varying degrees (except Bernie), but that first night looks a little mis-matched. I expect Warren to just do some clobberin'. Beto's good (although not performing nearly as well as I'd hoped), and Booker's always good, and Klobuchar should be interesting, but, yeah, Warren's likely going to get the most benefit from it. Whoever put her in that line-up did her a favor, I think. She's very good, but she'd have more trouble with some of the second-nighters.

Second night's gonna be more of a Wrestlemania. Bernie never has anything new, but he'll still get a lot of support because his fanbase is cultish and they'll respond to the same ol' shit no matter how many times he says it. Biden may get rolled over more than is expected. I like Biden a lot, but he's been a little too sedate... he's gonna need more fire in his belly to hold his own in that 'un. Harris is serious business in a debate, but I'm not sure she'll unleash the whup-ass against other Democrats. Against Trump she would drag him straight to the curb and feed it to him, but she may not get that brutal with her own side. God, I kinda hope not. And Mayor Pete has a big tendency to out-perform every time he shows up, so it won't surprise me much if he walks away with the night and gets a BIG bump from it. I think the others will probably still go ignored... although Yang might get a bit more attention. Whenever I see him I'm a bit more impressed.

3Democrats Debate lineup Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup on 6/15/2019, 1:13 am

RealLindaL


zsomething wrote:Warren's likely going to get the most benefit from it.  Whoever put her in that line-up did her a favor, I think.

The line-up order was chosen by lot (blind drawing).

4Democrats Debate lineup Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup on 6/25/2019, 10:38 am

Sal

Sal
It appears as tho some of the wheat is being separated from the chaff even pre-debate.

Mayor Pete's handling of the police shooting in South Bend hasn't even risen to the level of amateur night, and Beto's "war tax" proposal for non-military families may be the single most offensive and stupid policy proposal in recent history.

Neither are worthy of my consideration at this point.

5Democrats Debate lineup Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup on 6/25/2019, 11:28 am

othershoe1030

othershoe1030
We will be watching both nights, of course. This is a real break point for all the candidates, trying to make their mark without any stand-out goof-ups. Pressure, pressure, pressure. I think those few, who are unknown to most people will drop out or not make the next cutoff.

The benefits at this point of having so many contenders is that someone might come up with a really good idea. That is unlikely. More likely is that there are a few with what appear to be far out hair-brained ideas that will make the more mainstream positions look down right normal by comparison. Another bonus is that 45 doesn't know who to insult yet!

Months ago, I'd come across the mayor Pete firing of the black police chief and his lack of support among his black citizens in South Bend and thought that would be a big problem for him. No black support is a death knell to a Democrat.

6Democrats Debate lineup Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup on 6/25/2019, 11:34 am

RealLindaL


And what of Corey Booker's and others' stand on slavery reparations?  There are so many reasons why that's a nonsensical idea that I hardly know where to begin.

7Democrats Debate lineup Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup on 6/25/2019, 11:48 am

othershoe1030

othershoe1030
RealLindaL wrote:And what of Corey Booker's and others' stand on slavery reparations?  There are so many reasons why that's a nonsensical idea that I hardly know where to begin.

At first glance, reparations do seem like a crazy idea but I think there are actually some workable plans to address the ongoing and historic wrongs done with government sanctions to the slave population. These policies, which supported a basic notion of white supremacy were not strictly limited to the slaves and their descendants, but to all people of color.  

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/reparations-black-americans-slavery_n_56c4dfa9e4b08ffac1276bd7

8Democrats Debate lineup Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup on 6/25/2019, 11:49 am

bigdog


I agree, RLL. Corey was my second choice after Biden before that ridiculous idea, but talk about an issue that would chase Americans away from the Democratic party, that definitely would.

I can't imagine how otherwise intelligent people can come up with these ideas. I have to think twice about  anyone who would be in favor of such a thing.



Last edited by bigdog on 6/25/2019, 11:57 am; edited 1 time in total

9Democrats Debate lineup Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup on 6/25/2019, 11:51 am

Sal

Sal
RealLindaL wrote:And what of Corey Booker's and others' stand on slavery reparations?  There are so many reasons why that's a nonsensical idea that I hardly know where to begin.

Well, all that's being proposed is the formation of a commission to explore the concept.

And, the idea is not as nonsensical as I thought at first blush.

A case can be made, and it's made right here;


https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/

I challenge you and anyone else who finds the idea to be nonsensical to read that piece in its entirety.

I'm not convinced that it's feasible, but I came away from it with a new perspective.

If nothing else, it's compelling writing and his points are salient.

10Democrats Debate lineup Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup on 6/25/2019, 2:45 pm

RealLindaL


I generally detest the opinions of Walter Williams, but his latest piece on the subject, which I'm lifting only in part for brevity's sake, makes more sense to me than anything else I've read to date:

Several Democratic presidential hopefuls are calling for Americans to make reparations for slavery. On June 19, the House judiciary subcommittee on the constitution, civil rights and civil liberties held a hearing. Its stated purpose was “to examine, through open and constructive discourse, the legacy of the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade, its continuing impact on the community and the path to restorative justice.”

Slavery was a gross violation of human rights. Justice demands that all participants in the trans-Atlantic slave trade make compensatory reparation payments to slaves. However, there is no way that Europeans could have captured millions of Africans. That means compensation would have to be paid by Africans and Arabs who captured and sold slaves to Europeans in addition to the people who bought and used slaves. Since slaves and slave traders and owners are no longer with us, compensation is beyond our reach and it’s a matter that will have to be settled in hell or heaven.

Let’s pretend for a moment that the reparations issue makes a modicum of sense. There’s the question of responsibility. More explicitly, should we compensate a black person of today by punishing a white person of today, by taking his money, for what a white person of yesteryear did to a black person of yesteryear? If we believe in individual accountability, we should find that doing so is unjust. In other words, are the tens millions of Europeans, Asian and Latin Americans who immigrated to the U.S. in the late 19th and 20th centuries responsible for slavery, and should they be forced to cough up reparations? What about descendants of Northern whites who fought and died in the name of freeing slaves? Should they pay reparations to black Americans? What about non-slave-owning Southern whites — who were a majority of Southern whites — should their descendants be made to pay reparations?

Reparations advocates make the unchallenged pronouncement that United States became rich on the backs of free black labor. That’s utter nonsense. While some slave owners became rich, slavery doesn’t have a good record of producing wealth. Slavery existed in the southern states and outlawed in most of the northern states. Buying into the reparations argument suggests that the antebellum South was rich and the slave-starved North was poor. The truth is just the opposite. In fact, the poorest states and regions of our country were places where slavery flourished: Mississippi, Alabama and Georgia. And the richest states and regions were those where slavery was absent: Pennsylvania, New York and Massachusetts.

There’s another possible reparations issue completely ignored: Blacks as well as whites live on land taken, sometimes brutally, from American Indians. Do blacks and whites owe American Indians anything?

11Democrats Debate lineup Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup on 6/25/2019, 2:54 pm

RealLindaL


Further to the above, it seems to me that efforts to make public higher education free or substantially more affordable is a far better answer to improve the lives of countless Americans of ALL colors and society in general, and could certainly be seen as "reparations" for many ills caused all people of any color, in terms of helping "repair" what ails those various segments of our society that have not been able to rise up out of poverty and crime.

It's potentially the simple old saw at work: A rising tide lifts all boats.

12Democrats Debate lineup Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup on 6/25/2019, 4:11 pm

zsomething


I have to see what form reparations would come in before I'll say yea or nay. If they're just cutting everybody a check, then nah-ah, that's not gonna work.

If it's giving tax breaks to black-owned businesses, or scholarship help, or increased improvements in infrastructure in black communities, or something along those lines, then I'm a lot more in favor of it.

13Democrats Debate lineup Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup on 6/25/2019, 5:35 pm

bigdog


RLL, I agree with your posting completely. Taking money away from today's white population  to "pay-off"  the oppression of the ancestors of African American will do nothing but tear this country farther apart. It simply is not a fair solution to anyone and does nothing to help change our past.
Free education for all is the answer to leveling the playing field in this country. I grew up in a household that if anyone ever came into our door they  would have  pronounced us as "poor."  It's a long story and did not have to be, but the fact is that my brothers and sister grew up knowing that when a roof was leaking, you put a can next to your head in the bed to catch the water.
But three out of us were able to go to college, by way of the military and by working while we went to school. We were able to get educations and that made all the difference. It wasn't easy for my husband and I to send our girls to college, but we did, and they should never have any financial problems in their futures again. My son refused to go, but finally started his own business and has succeeded with hard work. And while doing it, he has hardly any white employees at all because he has chosen to give jobs to the kids in the neighborhoods where his stores are located.His first store is in the 7th ward in New Orleans. The building's rent  was cheap and it was  perfect for an ice cream store,   so he took a chance.  He's gotten kudos from the mayor of New Orleans for helping rebuild the economy by opening his second store  in east New Orleans, an all black area that was destroyed by a hurricane a few years ago. They opened up in a shopping center that had only a couple of businesses open a year ago, and now the shopping center is almost completely occupied. Yes, I am bragging. I couldn't be more proud of him, But for the most part, it's education that gets people out of poverty.  Handing money to anyone is not going to make a significant difference in changing the injustices their parents and grandparents suffered, and quite frankly, if this were to be done, it should have been done a couple of generations ago, when blacks were denied the educations they deserved. This particular generation may be discriminated against, and I know they are. But oppression is a different thing.

And how African would you have to be to get reparations? Could you imagine how many racist Southerners would check with 23 and Me and find out suddenly that they had an African American in their ancestry? It's almost funny to think about, but when you toss money into a crowd everyone is going to jump towards it.

14Democrats Debate lineup Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup on 6/25/2019, 8:01 pm

othershoe1030

othershoe1030
The idea of reparations, is an alien one to most Americans.  However, I am stunned at the position taken by some who seem to think that present day Americans could  not possibly be responsible for the condition of blacks living today. If your ancestors were not slave holders, if they did not come to this country until the 20th century, you still have reaped the benefits of the American system.

From the overriding effect of white privilege, to convict leasing and government sanctioned red-lining of housing, discrimination in every sector of society from education to the military (until, what the 1950's or the Civil Rights Movement), whites have had an upper hand. This was as unknown to us as water is to a fish, but it existed nonetheless and we all benefited from it. Conversely, the black family suffered under the system in ways too numerous to go into here.

But the point is this: the argument that since none of us living now owned slaves or profited directly from their unpaid work we should be exempt from any form of restoration or reparations is to ignore the flow of events in the country as a whole when it came to how we, AS A PEOPLE, treated people of color. It was society's doing that they were treated as they were, so it is not being clear about our history to claim we have no responsibility.

15Democrats Debate lineup Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup on 6/25/2019, 9:45 pm

Sal

Sal
othershoe1030 wrote:The idea of reparations, is an alien one to most Americans.  However, I am stunned at the position taken by some who seem to think that present day Americans could  not possibly be responsible for the condition of blacks living today. If your ancestors were not slave holders, if they did not come to this country until the 20th century, you still have reaped the benefits of the American system.

From the overriding effect of white privilege, to convict leasing and government sanctioned red-lining of housing, discrimination in every sector of society from education to the military (until, what the 1950's or the Civil Rights Movement), whites have had an upper hand. This was as unknown to us as water is to a fish, but it existed nonetheless and we all benefited from it. Conversely, the black family suffered under the system in ways too numerous to go into here.

But the point is this: the argument that since none of us living now owned slaves or profited directly from their unpaid work we should be exempt from any form of restoration or reparations is to ignore the flow of events in the country as a whole when it came to how we, AS A PEOPLE, treated people of color. It was society's doing that they were treated as they were, so it is not being clear about our history to claim we have no responsibility.

Thanks.

Brilliantly summarized.

16Democrats Debate lineup Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup on 6/25/2019, 11:42 pm

bigdog


I disagree and I believe it would be the most divisive piece of legislation in the 21st century. Americans don't need any more reasons for division. This country is barely floating above water right now.
I'm sorry if I don't suffer from the proper amount of white guilt to suit some in my political party. There are enough things in life to regret than things you are sure you've never participated in.. And by the way, we all have benefited from living in this country, all of us that are alive today. Not just one race, but everyone who has been lucky enough to have been born here.
I think it was Jesse Jackson who said originally that America's problems are not about black and white, they are about the have nots against the have gots. He was absolutely right.  When I went to L.A last week, I saw more homeless people camping in tents right on the streets than I've ever imagined even existed.  We don't need to be handing out checks to one segment of society, no matter whether they are middle class or poor, just because of the color of their skins. We have to conquer the poverty problems here before we start handing out checks to people who may not even need them.
This country has a lot of problems. We have done a lot of terrible things to a lot of people.We stole this entire country from Native Americans and Mexicans. We locked up Asians. We are now locking up Mexican babies. That's the sin of this generation. Americans who didn't vote or who voted for Trump are responsible for that. But it's our government We are not lined up on the border screaming for ICE to stop it, are we?  Every generation has its own horrors to feel guilty about. I'm not willing to accept the guilt of my great grandfather's generation. Our own generation has enough guilt to go around.

17Democrats Debate lineup Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup on 6/26/2019, 2:30 am

RealLindaL


bigdog wrote:RLL, I agree with your posting completely.

Thanks for saying, and I very much appreciate your own thoughtful postings on this matter, including your last statement:

"Every generation has its own horrors to feel guilty about. I'm not willing to accept the guilt of my great grandfather's generation. Our own generation has enough guilt to go around."


And lest anyone forget, this entire movement is being couched in the catchphrase, "reparations for SLAVERY," the hot button word everyone is expected to react to.  Yet at the same time supporters seek to justify it by detailed reference to every single injustice toward blacks SINCE slavery.  Trying to have it both ways, seems to me, and I, for one am not buying it.  You bet it's divisive, b.d. - big time.  And that's the very LAST thing we need in this nation.

It's good to know you agree: the best and wisest answer is education, education, education -- for ALL people.

18Democrats Debate lineup Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup on 6/26/2019, 2:53 am

Telstar

Telstar
Democrats Debate lineup Fredri10



Hopefully bone spur will want to meet with the agitator soon.

19Democrats Debate lineup Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup on 6/26/2019, 8:22 am

Sal

Sal
Well, I can see that your keen minds have given this issue your careful, analytical consideration and determined that racial matters in the United States are "divisive".

Democrats Debate lineup Captur15

Apparently, just another in a seemingly endless list of problems that will have to be addressed after that loathsome generation finally, mercifully, dies off.

20Democrats Debate lineup Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup on 6/26/2019, 10:21 am

Floridatexan

Floridatexan
Sal wrote:Well, I can see that your keen minds have given this issue your careful, analytical consideration and determined that racial matters in the United States are "divisive".

Democrats Debate lineup Captur15

Apparently, just another in a seemingly endless list of problems that will have to be addressed after that loathsome generation finally, mercifully, dies off.

Not only are you dead wrong about my generation, but your "solution" won't fix anything. Yes, there are people of my generation that are still selfish jerks, just as there are plenty of YOUR generation that fit the bill. People who have low morals often have children with...no morals.

21Democrats Debate lineup Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup on 6/26/2019, 10:33 am

RealLindaL


Sal wrote:Apparently, just another in a seemingly endless list of problems that will have to be addressed after that loathsome generation finally, mercifully, dies off.

Which loathsome generation would that be? The one that gave birth to you?

In any case, if you want to see the definition of divisive, try looking in the mirror. Congratulations.

22Democrats Debate lineup Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup on 6/26/2019, 11:29 am

othershoe1030

othershoe1030
RealLindaL wrote:
bigdog wrote:RLL, I agree with your posting completely.

Thanks for saying, and I very much appreciate your own thoughtful postings on this matter, including your last statement:
[i]

It's good to know you agree: the best and wisest answer is education, education, education -- for ALL people.  


Trying to ignore or bury our racial history is not the answer. Sweeping our problems under the rug is precisely what has brought us to this point. It would not be divisive to fully understand our racial history. It would be the beginning of a cure.

The educational cure is exactly what is needed. White people need to be educated about the history of race and black people need access to a good education that opens the doors of opportunity for them.

Americans cannot be brought, kicking and screaming to a solution. It is important for white Americans to understand the institutional and social obstacles faced by black citizens every day (in their own country!) before there can be any thought of reparations. Otherwise it just seems unfair and we'll continue to hear the standard excuses about how no one in this generation owned slaves and the fear of the ridiculous chaos that would ensue should the government start "cutting checks" to anyone claiming blackness.

Attitudes change over time. Look at the younger generation who think of same sex marriage and transgender people with a nonchalance that was hard to imagine even 25 years ago. I have hope that racial attitudes will undergo a similar transformation and education of white people is the key. So, I would like to expand your support of education to include the bulk of white people as well as the "normal" model of education extended to the black population.

23Democrats Debate lineup Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup on 6/26/2019, 11:41 am

PkrBum

PkrBum
https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/fortune/2019/04/14/human-sex-trafficking-us-slavery

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_Mexico#Trafficking_across_the_border_with_the_United_States

https://www.globalslaveryindex.org



Last edited by PkrBum on 6/26/2019, 11:48 am; edited 1 time in total

24Democrats Debate lineup Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup on 6/26/2019, 11:47 am

RealLindaL


othershoe1030 wrote:So, I would like to expand your support of education to include the bulk of white people as well as the "normal" model of education extended to the black population.


It's good to know you agree: the best and wisest answer is education, education, education -- for ALL people.

25Democrats Debate lineup Empty Re: Democrats Debate lineup on 6/26/2019, 12:00 pm

Sal

Sal
Uh oh ....

.... this is gonna leave a mark.


There are two story lines about Joe Biden’s long Senate record that are potentially dangerous for him, in that they could threaten his currently strong support among African-Americans. One involves his friendships with segregationists in the Senate — notably James Eastland, Strom Thurmond, and Herman Talmadge — which he can’t seem to stop talking about. And the other is his responsibility for policies that have led to mass incarceration, including the landmark 1994 crime bill.

What could be happening now is that the two stories are converging, as reflected in a New York Times report on how Biden worked closely with his racist colleagues to push crime policy toward mandatory minimum sentences and other “get tough” positions, long before the 1994 bill.

Mr. Biden finally landed a seat on the judiciary panel in February 1977, and wrote to Mr. Eastland again, petitioning to be put in charge of the subcommittee overseeing prisons and sentencing. By year’s end, with Mr. Eastland’s support, he was pushing to narrow judicial discretion by creating a commission to set “presumptive sentences,” and to eliminate pardons and parole. His aim, he told his hometown newspaper, The Wilmington Evening Journal, was to keep defendants “who don’t meet the middle-class criteria of susceptibility to rehabilitation” from being set free.


In 1981, when Democrats lost the Senate, Republicans installed another old bull Southern segregationist as chairman: Mr. Thurmond, a Democrat-turned-Republican from South Carolina, who had run for president in 1948 on the Dixiecrat platform. Mr. Biden became the ranking Democrat on the committee.


Over the next decade — first with Mr. Thurmond as chairman and then Mr. Biden after Democrats won back the Senate in 1986 — the pair wrote roughly a half-dozen crime bills together, laying the groundwork for three of the most significant pieces of crime legislation of the 20th century: the Comprehensive Crime Control Act of 1984, establishing mandatory minimum sentences for drug offenses; the 1986 Anti-Drug Abuse Act, which dictated much harsher sentences for possession of crack than for powder cocaine; and the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, a vast catchall tough-on-crime bill.


http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/06/on-crime-biden-worked-closely-with-his-segregationist-pals.html

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