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More food for thought about Biden

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26More food for thought about Biden - Page 2 Empty Re: More food for thought about Biden on 6/20/2019, 9:18 pm

Floridatexan wrote:
RealLindaL wrote:
Floridatexan wrote:
bigdog wrote:
PkrBum wrote:Joe Biden, Recalling ‘Civility’ in Senate, Invokes Two Segregationist Senators

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/19/us/politics/biden-segregationists.html

Hey, Pkr. I'm a Joe Biden voter. I don't care.
See, there's your problem. I didn't care about all the references to his "touching" women's hair. That didn't work.
I didn't care way back in 1988 or whenever it was that he was accused of plagiarism in college. It only  worked that time because dems had the choice of Bill Clinton. This time, Biden is the only game in town for moderates. So, I don't care. It won't work.
It won't work for any moderates out there. We won't give up on Biden. Because we don't want the fucking demon in the White House that is there now, and we are the majority of Americans, like it or not. Three million more of us voted for Hillary than voted for the demon.   We also are capable of knowing that it was outrageous for the gay community to expect a pride flag be flown above an American embassy, which is exactly the kind of issue that turns middle Americans directly away from the Democratic party. It's the kind of issue that all those other Democratic candidates running want to embrace because they want to look so "woke" that their eyes are about to explode.
If they want to attack Biden for being willing to talk to racists, all it will do is make centrist American think they are far too left for them. Because those Americans talk to their neighbors, whether they are racists or not. I certainly do, I even talk to YOU Pkr, did you notice?


If you're a Democrat, the party IS in trouble.

What, precisely, is so terrible about what bigdog said??

We don't need a "moderate".  We need to exorcise the Reps that have been enabling the Orange Menace.  We need to reverse the GOP tax cuts, reinstate the estate tax, stop the corporate mergers, raise the minimum wage, make sure that women have basic rights, and on and on.  We need representation for the people.  Joe keeps shooting himself in the foot.  He may be trying to capture Republicans that are sick of Drumpf, but in the process, he's losing his own base.  

And I can't think of a reason for US embassies to NOT recognize gay pride month.  We have a local FL rep that laughed at the idea of killing gays.  We have a *resident that won't acknowledge their autonomy and right to exist.  And we have the worst inequality in our country since the end of George W Bush's tenure.  

I support Elizabeth Warren.  She has the credentials, the presence, the knowledge, the grace, and most important, a PLAN.  I'd like to see her with a younger running mate, someone prepared to take the helm...one of the other candidates.


Okay, I didn't read this post before I made mine, but I can see that what made you angry is EXACTLY what I thought. You wanted me to tell you why a gay pride flag doesn't belong on an embassy flag pole. I did. Because it is simply a flag celebrating how some americans practice sex. Why not then put the Christian flag up on the pole? More people claim to practice Christianity than claim to be gay, right?  Or how about an NRA gun owner's rights flag? Many more Americans own guns than either claim to be Christians or are gay. A whole lot of normal , moderate Americans like myself actually do believe that some people have worked so hard to be open minded that they've let their brains fly out of their heads.WE are the people who voted for, and elected by numbers, Hillary Clinton last election, and we'll be the ones who will vote for Joe Biden next election .
As far as not talking to racists, I live in Pensacola. I would have barely anyone at all to talk to if I eliminated everyone I suspected of being a racist. If they come into my home and spew their crap, I politely aske them to not air their views at my house because I don't appreciate it. If I'm at their house, I'm their guest. And if I were a US Senator who was WORKING at my WORKPLACE with a goal of getting something good done, I would definitely talk to a racist if he could help me.
BTW, being called "son" was not a complement back then either. It was patronizing.   Biden said the people he mentioned were "mean." What the hell else do you want him to say? Go ahead and pick your nits. Liz Warren would never beat Donald Trump in the general election. She didn't even know what to do when he called her Pocahontas.

Yep, I'm a little pissed off here too, because I know where I was November 8 of 2016. I was in Ensley, which is in North Pensacola, going from door to door in the freaking rain asking people if they needed a ride to the polls to go vote for Hillary. BECAUSE I AM  A DEMOCRAT whether you think I'm the kind the party needs or not.I know for a fact that I'm the kind the party likes, because they just love us dumb people who are willing to work for free. What were you doing that day? Just wondering.

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27More food for thought about Biden - Page 2 Empty Re: More food for thought about Biden on 6/20/2019, 9:54 pm

bigdog wrote:
Oh, I AM a Democrat. I was even a delegate to the Fla. Democratic convention back in '03, and have earned my right to call myself a Dem by the hours I have walked the streets campaigning for various Democratic candidates. I'm a Clinton Democrat, FYI, and very proud to be so. I was the co-leader of Wes Clark's campaign here in Pensacola, because Wes Clark was a Clinton Democrat. When he dropped out, I went to work with John Edwards local campaign, because he was just barely to the left of the Clinton's. Joe Biden is a centrist, and Barack Obama's presidency was run as a centrist. The only progressive thing Obama did was his health care bill, and even then, he did not fight for full coverage for all Americans.

I firmly believe in the death penalty, but I don't believe citizens need assault weapons. Smaller arms should be an absolute right of American citizens. I don't believe in American exceptionalism, I don't believe we are better people than those born anywhere else on the planet, but I do believe in a strong defense. I have a lot of varying things in my brain that don't seem to always be consistent, and I like myself just fine that way.
But I AM a Democrat, and I am a Democratic party animal who wants to win the 2020 election.  We won't win it by catering to every single special interest group in the country or by being snowflakes. Most Americans identify themselves as centrists, and more of them are Democrats than Republicans.
Snowflakes get on their nerves. They want to hear about better schools and not about gay flags above an embassy where any serious thinking person knows they do not belong.
I think that's what made you mad- that statement, right? I have gay friends, I know gay people are born that way, and that they should have every right that every single other American has, without prejudice.
Believing all that does not take from the fact that the gay pride flag is basically a symbol of how a certain segment of our society practices sex.  When someone can logically tell me why it belongs on an embassy flagstaff, or any symbol of how anyone does sex belongs on any government building, kindly let me know. Also, the only reason the Israeli's want to put it on their flagstaffs is to piss off the Arab settlers nearby who would have to see it. It's vintage Netanyahu, and I'm not for anything that bastard wants to do to piss off his neighbors.

cheers   cheers   cheers   cheers   cheers

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28More food for thought about Biden - Page 2 Empty Re: More food for thought about Biden on 6/20/2019, 10:02 pm

bigdog wrote:Okay, I didn't read this post before I made mine, but I can see that what made you angry is EXACTLY what I thought. You wanted me to tell you why a gay pride flag doesn't belong on an embassy flag pole. I did. Because it is simply a flag celebrating how some americans practice sex. Why not then put the Christian flag up on the pole? More people claim to practice Christianity than claim to be gay, right?  Or how about an NRA gun owner's rights flag? Many more Americans own guns than either claim to be Christians or are gay. A whole lot of normal , moderate Americans like myself actually do believe that some people have worked so hard to be open minded that they've let their brains fly out of their heads.WE are the people who voted for, and elected by numbers, Hillary Clinton last election, and we'll be the ones who will vote for Joe Biden next election .
As far as not talking to racists, I live in Pensacola. I would have barely anyone at all to talk to if I eliminated everyone I suspected of being a racist. If they come into my home and spew their crap, I politely aske them to not air their views at my house because I don't appreciate it. If I'm at their house, I'm their guest. And if I were a US Senator who was WORKING at my WORKPLACE with a goal of getting something good done, I would definitely talk to a racist if he could help me.
BTW, being called "son" was not a complement back then either. It was patronizing.   Biden said the people he mentioned were "mean." What the hell else do you want him to say? Go ahead and pick your nits. Liz Warren would never beat Donald Trump in the general election. She didn't even know what to do when he called her Pocahontas.

Yep, I'm a little pissed off here too, because I know where I was November 8 of 2016. I was in Ensley, which is in North Pensacola, going from door to door in the freaking rain asking people if they needed a ride to the polls to go vote for Hillary. BECAUSE I AM  A DEMOCRAT whether you think I'm the kind the party needs or not.I know for a fact that I'm the kind the party likes, because they just love us dumb people who are willing to work for free.  What were you doing that day? Just wondering.

cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers

I'm just a lowly left-leaning, socially liberal, fiscally somewhat conservative independent -- so yeah, a centrist, and I agree with just about every word in both of these bigdog posts.

As for the inheritance tax, I'd rather see higher income tax rates on the upper echelon and/or a separate tax on excess income ("wealth tax") instead, since the monies accumulated in an estate have theoretically already been taxed once. To my mind, that's the same injustice as taxing part of our Social Security income.

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29More food for thought about Biden - Page 2 Empty Re: More food for thought about Biden on 6/20/2019, 10:29 pm

When so-called conservatism has drifted so far right that we’re on the verge of fascism, and you feel the need to identify as a “centrist” or a “moderate”, the truth is you are complicit and a coward.

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30More food for thought about Biden - Page 2 Empty Re: More food for thought about Biden on 6/21/2019, 1:51 am

Sal wrote:When so-called conservatism has drifted so far right that we’re on the verge of fascism, and you feel the need to identify as a “centrist” or a “moderate”, the truth is you are complicit and a coward.

Good grief, Sal, that's pretty damned self-righteous and judgmental of you. And what's with the name-calling for people you should be hoping will vote for whoever the Democratic candidate is, rather than fomenting even more divisiveness than already exists?? Great way to help insure Trump wins again.

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31More food for thought about Biden - Page 2 Empty Re: More food for thought about Biden on 6/21/2019, 8:49 am

RealLindaL wrote:
Sal wrote:When so-called conservatism has drifted so far right that we’re on the verge of fascism, and you feel the need to identify as a “centrist” or a “moderate”, the truth is you are complicit and a coward.

Good grief, Sal, that's pretty damned self-righteous and judgmental of you.  And what's with the name-calling for people you should be hoping will vote for whoever the Democratic candidate is, rather than fomenting even more divisiveness than already exists??   Great way to help insure Trump wins again.

Fuck that shit.

We had torch-carrying nazis in Charlottesville chanting "Jews will not replace us", we had proud boys marching at the Trump rally in Orlando chanting "Pinochet did nothing wrong", and the Trump administration is operating concentration camps of immigrant children, who they are arguing in court are not entitled to hygienic items such as toothpaste, soap, and clean clothing.

I'm sorry, but it's time to pick a fucking side.

I'm not interested in the votes of nazis nor those of nazi sympathizers.

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32More food for thought about Biden - Page 2 Empty Re: More food for thought about Biden on 6/21/2019, 10:22 am

Lol... conservatives are heading toward (leftist) collectivist statism (fascism)... but a socialist is running as a Democrat. Who's heading which direction? Btw... obamacaid was by any objective measure the largest fascist program in our history. A direct collusion between enormous corporations and our enormous central govt mandating (forcing) private citizens to purchase a private product. You don't have any fucking idea what's going on... none.

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33More food for thought about Biden - Page 2 Empty Re: More food for thought about Biden on 6/21/2019, 10:24 am

Sal wrote:
RealLindaL wrote:
Sal wrote:When so-called conservatism has drifted so far right that we’re on the verge of fascism, and you feel the need to identify as a “centrist” or a “moderate”, the truth is you are complicit and a coward.

Good grief, Sal, that's pretty damned self-righteous and judgmental of you.  And what's with the name-calling for people you should be hoping will vote for whoever the Democratic candidate is, rather than fomenting even more divisiveness than already exists??   Great way to help insure Trump wins again.

Fuck that shit.

We had torch-carrying nazis in Charlottesville chanting "Jews will not replace us", we had proud boys marching at the Trump rally in Orlando chanting "Pinochet did nothing wrong", and the Trump administration is operating concentration camps of immigrant children, who they are arguing in court are not entitled to hygienic items such as toothpaste, soap, and clean clothing.

I'm sorry, but it's time to pick a fucking side.

I'm not interested in the votes of nazis nor those of nazi sympathizers.

Put the fire in your hair out and be honest. read this - it might help if you are objective about it
.
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/449506-justice-dept-lawyer-suggests-toothbrush-and-soap-not-required-for

It's not as simplified as you attempt to make it.

Why don't you climb down from your Ivory Tower and volunteer to house a dozen illegal children until their idiot parent's who brought them here can have their cases resolved? Or would you rather turn them loose so they can be picked up by human traffickers?

You have no solutions of course......

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34More food for thought about Biden - Page 2 Empty Re: More food for thought about Biden on 6/21/2019, 10:41 am

gatorfan wrote:
Put the fire in your hair out and be honest. read this - it might help if you are objective about it
.
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/449506-justice-dept-lawyer-suggests-toothbrush-and-soap-not-required-for

It's not as simplified as you attempt to make it.

Why don't you climb down from your Ivory Tower and volunteer to house a dozen illegal children until their idiot parent's who brought them here can have their cases resolved? Or would you rather turn them loose so they can be picked up by human traffickers?

You have no solutions of course......

YOU IGNORANT ASSHOLE!

Here's a list of all the U.S. interventions in Central America--it started with us stealing half of Mexico with a phony pretext. Sound familiar? We were probably looking of Weapons of Mass Destruction!

Read some fuckin' history, you stupid shit!

1846
The U.S., fulfilling the doctrine of Manifest Destiny, goes to war with Mexico and ends up with a third of Mexico's territory.

1850, 1853, 1854, 1857
U.S. interventions in Nicaragua.

1855
Tennessee adventurer William Walker and his mercenaries take over Nicaragua, institute forced labor, and legalize slavery.
"Los yankis... have burst their way like a fertilizing torrent through the barriers of barbarism." --N.Y. Daily News
He's ousted two years later by a Central American coalition largely inspired by Cornelius Vanderbilt, whose trade Walker was infringing.
"The enemies of American civilization-- for such are the enemies of slavery-- seem to be more on the alert than its friends." --William Walker

1856
First of five U.S. interventions in Panama to protect the Atlantic-Pacific railroad from Panamanian nationalists.

1898
U.S. declares war on Spain, blaming it for destruction of the Maine. (In 1976, a U.S. Navy commission will conclude that the explosion was probably an accident.) The war enables the U.S. to occupy Cuba, Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Philippines.

1903
The Platt Amendment inserted into the Cuban constitution grants the U.S. the right to intervene when it sees fit.

1903
When negotiations with Colombia break down, the U.S. sends ten warships to back a rebellion in Panama in order to acquire the land for the Panama Canal. The Frenchman Philippe Bunau-Varilla negotiates the Canal Treaty and writes Panama's constitution.

1904
U.S. sends customs agents to take over finances of the Dominican Republic to assure payment of its external debt.

1905
U.S. Marines help Mexican dictator Porfirio Díaz crush a strike in Sonora.

1905
U.S. troops land in Honduras for the first of 5 times in next 20 years.

1906
Marines occupy Cuba for two years in order to prevent a civil war.

1907
Marines intervene in Honduras to settle a war with Nicaragua.

1908
U.S. troops intervene in Panama for first of 4 times in next decade.

1909
Liberal President José Santos Zelaya of Nicaragua proposes that American mining and banana companies pay taxes; he has also appropriated church lands and legalized divorce, done business with European firms, and executed two Americans for participating in a rebellion. Forced to resign through U.S. pressure. The new president, Adolfo Díaz, is the former treasurer of an American mining company.

1910
U.S. Marines occupy Nicaragua to help support the Díaz regime.

1911
The Liberal regime of Miguel Dávila in Honduras has irked the State Department by being too friendly with Zelaya and by getting into debt with Britain. He is overthrown by former president Manuel Bonilla, aided by American banana tycoon Sam Zemurray and American mercenary Lee Christmas, who becomes commander-in-chief of the Honduran army.

1912
U.S. Marines intervene in Cuba to put down a rebellion of sugar workers.

1912
Nicaragua occupied again by the U.S., to shore up the inept Díaz government. An election is called to resolve the crisis: there are 4000 eligible voters, and one candidate, Díaz. The U.S. maintains troops and advisors in the country until 1925.

1914
U.S. bombs and then occupies Vera Cruz, in a conflict arising out of a dispute with Mexico's new government. President Victoriano Huerta resigns.

1915
U.S. Marines occupy Haiti to restore order, and establish a protectorate which lasts till 1934. The president of Haiti is barred from the U.S. Officers' Club in Port-au-Prince, because he is black.
"Think of it-- niggers speaking French!" --secretary of State William Jennings Bryan, briefed on the Haitian situation

1916
Marines occupy the Dominican Republic, staying till 1924.

! 1916
Pancho Villa, in the sole act of Latin American aggression against the U.S, raids the city of Columbus, New Mexico, killing 17 Americans.
"Am sure Villa's attacks are made in Germany." --James Gerard, U.S. ambassador to Berlin

1917
U.S. troops enter Mexico to pursue Pancho Villa. They can't catch him.

1917
Marines intervene again in Cuba, to guarantee sugar exports during WWI.

1918
U.S. Marines occupy Panamanian province of Chiriqui for two years to maintain public order.

1921
President Coolidge strongly suggests the overthrow of Guatemalan President Carlos Herrera, in the interests of United Fruit. The Guatemalans comply.

1925
U.S. Army troops occupy Panama City to break a rent strike and keep order.

1926
Marines, out of Nicaragua for less than a year, occupy the country again, to settle a volatile political situation. Secretary of State Kellogg describes a "Nicaraguan-Mexican-Soviet" conspiracy to inspire a "Mexican-Bolshevist hegemony" within striking distance of the Canal.
"That intervention is not now, never was, and never will be a set policy of the United States is one of the most important facts President-elect Hoover has made clear." --NYT, 1928

1929
U.S. establishes a military academy in Nicaragua to train a National Guard as the country's army. Similar forces are trained in Haiti and the Dominican Republic.
"There is no room for any outside influence other than ours in this region. We could not tolerate such a thing without incurring grave risks... Until now Central America has always understood that governments which we recognize and support stay in power, while those which we do not recognize and support fall. Nicaragua has become a test case. It is difficult to see how we can afford to be defeated." --Undersecretary of State Robert Olds

1930
Rafael Leonidas Trujillo emerges from the U.S.-trained National Guard to become dictator of the Dominican Republic.

1932
The U.S. rushes warships to El Salvador in response to a communist-led uprising. President Martínez, however, prefers to put down the rebellion with his own forces, killing over 8000 people (the rebels had killed about 100).

1933
President Roosevelt announces the Good Neighbor policy.

1933
Marines finally leave Nicaragua, unable to suppress the guerrilla warfare of General Augusto César Sandino. Anastasio Somoza García becomes the first Nicaraguan commander of the National Guard.
"The Nicaraguans are better fighters than the Haitians, being of Indian blood, and as warriors similar to the aborigines who resisted the advance of civilization in this country." --NYT correspondent Harold Denny

1933
Roosevelt sends warships to Cuba to intimidate Gerardo Machado y Morales, who is massacring the people to put down nationwide strikes and riots. Machado resigns. The first provisional government lasts only 17 days; the second Roosevelt finds too left-wing and refuses to recognize. A pro-Machado counter-coup is put down by Fulgencio Batista, who with Roosevelt's blessing becomes Cuba's new strongman.

!1934
Platt Amendment repealed.

1934
Sandino assassinated by agents of Somoza, with U.S. approval. Somoza assumes the presidency of Nicaragua two years later. To block his ascent, Secretary of State Cordell Hull explains, would be to intervene in the internal affairs of Nicaragua.

!1936
U.S. relinquishes rights to unilateral intervention in Panama.

1941
Ricardo Adolfo de la Guardia deposes Panamanian president Arias in a military coup-- first clearing it with the U.S. Ambassador.
It was "a great relief to us, because Arias had been very troublesome and very pro-Nazi." --Secretary of War Henry Stimson

1943
The editor of the Honduran opposition paper El Cronista is summoned to the U.S. embassy and told that criticism of the dictator Tiburcio Carías Andino is damaging to the war effort. Shortly afterward, the paper is shut down by the government.

1944
The dictator Maximiliano Hernández Martínez of El Salvador is ousted by a revolution; the interim government is overthrown five months later by the dictator's former chief of police. The U.S.'s immediate recognition of the new dictator does much to tarnish Roosevelt's Good Neighbor policy in the eyes of Latin Americans.

1946
U.S. Army School of the Americas opens in Panama as a hemisphere-wide military academy. Its linchpin is the doctrine of National Security, by which the chief threat to a nation is internal subversion; this will be the guiding principle behind dictatorships in Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Chile, Central America, and elsewhere.

1948
José Figueres Ferrer wins a short civil war to become President of Costa Rica. Figueres is supported by the U.S., which has informed San José that its forces in the Panama Canal are ready to come to the capital to end "communist control" of Costa Rica.

1954
Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán, elected president of Guatemala, introduces land reform and seizes some idle lands of United Fruit-- proposing to pay for them the value United Fruit claimed on its tax returns. The CIA organizes a small force to overthrow him and begins training it in Honduras. When Arbenz naively asks for U.S. military help to meet this threat, he is refused; when he buys arms from Czechoslovakia it only proves he's a Red.
Guatemala is "openly and diligently toiling to create a Communist state in Central America... only two hours' bombing time from the Panama Canal." --Life
The CIA broadcasts reports detailing the imaginary advance of the "rebel army," and provides planes to strafe the capital. The army refuses to defend Arbenz, who resigns. The U.S.'s hand-picked dictator, Carlos Castillo Armas, outlaws political parties, reduces the franchise, and establishes the death penalty for strikers, as well as undoing Arbenz's land reform. Over 100,000 citizens are killed in the next 30 years of military rule.
"This is the first instance in history where a Communist government has been replaced by a free one." --Richard Nixon

1957
Eisenhower establishes Office of Public Safety to train Latin American police forces.

! 1959
Fidel Castro takes power in Cuba. Several months earlier he had undertaken a triumphal tour through the U.S., which included a CIA briefing on the Red menace.
"Castro's continued tawdry little melodrama of invasion." --Time, of Castro's warnings of an imminent U.S. invasion

1960
Eisenhower authorizes covert actions to get rid of Castro. Among other things, the CIA tries assassinating him with exploding cigars and poisoned milkshakes. Other covert actions against Cuba include burning sugar fields, blowing up boats in Cuban harbors, and sabotaging industrial equipment.

1960
The Canal Zone becomes the focus of U.S. counterinsurgency training.

1960
A new junta in El Salvador promises free elections; Eisenhower, fearing leftist tendencies, withholds recognition. A more attractive right-wing counter-coup comes along in three months.
"Governments of the civil-military type of El Salvador are the most effective in containing communist penetration in Latin America." --John F. Kennedy, after the coup

1960
Guatemalan officers attempt to overthrow the regime of Presidente Fuentes; Eisenhower stations warships and 2000 Marines offshore while Fuentes puts down the revolt. [Another source says that the U.S. provided air support for Fuentes.]

1960s
U.S. Green Berets train Guatemalan army in counterinsurgency techniques. Guatemalan efforts against its insurgents include aerial bombing, scorched-earth assaults on towns suspected of aiding the rebels, and death squads, which killed 20,000 people between 1966 and 1976. U.S. Army Col. John Webber claims that it was at his instigation that "the technique of counter-terror had been implemented by the army."
"If it is necessary to turn the country into a cemetary in order to pacify it, I will not hesitate to do so." --President Carlos Arana Osorio

1961
U.S. organizes force of 1400 anti-Castro Cubans, ships it to the Bahía de los Cochinos. Castro's army routs it.

1961
CIA-backed coup overthrows elected Pres. J. M. Velasco Ibarra of Ecuador, who has been too friendly with Cuba.

1962
CIA engages in campaign in Brazil to keep João Goulart from achieving control of Congress.
1963
CIA-backed coup overthrows elected social democrat Juan Bosch in the Dominican Republic.

1963
A far-right-wing coup in Guatemala, apparently U.S.-supported, forestalls elections in which "extreme leftist" Juan José Arévalo was favored to win.
"It is difficult to develop stable and democratic government [in Guatemala], because so many of the nation's Indians are illiterate and superstitious." --School textbook, 1964

1964
João Goulart of Brazil proposes agrarian reform, nationalization of oil. Ousted by U.S.-supported military coup.

1964
The free market in Nicaragua:
The Somoza family controls "about one-tenth of the cultivable land in Nicaragua, and just about everything else worth owning, the country's only airline, one television station, a newspaper, a cement plant, textile mill, several sugar refineries, half-a-dozen breweries and distilleries, and a Mercedes-Benz agency." --Life World Library

1965
A coup in the Dominican Republic attempts to restore Bosch's government. The U.S. invades and occupies the country to stop this "Communist rebellion," with the help of the dictators of Brazil, Paraguay, Honduras, and Nicaragua.
"Representative democracy cannot work in a country such as the Dominican Republic," Bosch declares later. Now why would he say that?

1966
U.S. sends arms, advisors, and Green Berets to Guatemala to implement a counterinsurgency campaign.
"To eliminate a few hundred guerrillas, the government killed perhaps 10,000 Guatemalan peasants." --State Dept. report on the program

1967
A team of Green Berets is sent to Bolivia to help find and assassinate Che Guevara.

1968
Gen. José Alberto Medrano, who is on the payroll of the CIA, organizes the ORDEN paramilitary force, considered the precursor of El Salvador's death squads.

! 1970
In this year (just as an example), U.S. investments in Latin America earn $1.3 billion; while new investments total $302 million.

1970
Salvador Allende Gossens elected in Chile. Suspends foreign loans, nationalizes foreign companies. For the phone system, pays ITT the company's minimized valuation for tax purposes. The CIA provides covert financial support for Allende's opponents, both during and after his election.

1972
U.S. stands by as military suspends an election in El Salvador in which centrist José Napoleón Duarte was favored to win. (Compare with the emphasis placed on the 1982 elections.)

1973
U.S.-supported military coup kills Allende and brings Augusto Pinochet Ugarte to power. Pinochet imprisons well over a hundred thousand Chileans (torture and rape are the usual methods of interrogation), terminates civil liberties, abolishes unions, extends the work week to 48 hours, and reverses Allende's land reforms.

1973
Military takes power in Uruguay, supported by U.S. The subsequent repression reportedly features the world's highest percentage of the population imprisoned for political reasons.

1974
Office of Public Safety is abolished when it is revealed that police are being taught torture techniques.

! 1976
Election of Jimmy Carter leads to a new emphasis on human rights in Central America. Carter cuts off aid to the Guatemalan military (or tries to; some slips through) and reduces aid to El Salvador.

! 1979
Ratification of the Panama Canal treaty which is to return the Canal to Panama by 1999.
"Once again, Uncle Sam put his tail between his legs and crept away rather than face trouble." --Ronald Reagan

1980
A right-wing junta takes over in El Salvador. U.S. begins massively supporting El Salvador, assisting the military in its fight against FMLN guerrillas. Death squads proliferate; Archbishop Romero is assassinated by right-wing terrorists; 35,000 civilians are killed in 1978-81. The rape and murder of four U.S. churchwomen results in the suspension of U.S. military aid for one month.
The U.S. demands that the junta undertake land reform. Within 3 years, however, the reform program is halted by the oligarchy.
"The Soviet Union underlies all the unrest that is going on." --Ronald Reagan
1980
U.S., seeking a stable base for its actions in El Salvador and Nicaragua, tells the Honduran military to clean up its act and hold elections. The U.S. starts pouring in $100 million of aid a year and basing the contras on Honduran territory.
Death squads are also active in Honduras, and the contras tend to act as a state within a state.

1981
The CIA steps in to organize the contras in Nicaragua, who started the previous year as a group of 60 ex-National Guardsmen; by 1985 there are about 12,000 of them. 46 of the 48 top military leaders are ex-Guardsmen. The U.S. also sets up an economic embargo of Nicaragua and pressures the IMF and the World Bank to limit or halt loans to Nicaragua.

1981
Gen. Torrijos of Panama is killed in a plane crash. There is a suspicion of CIA involvement, due to Torrijos' nationalism and friendly relations with Cuba.

1982
A coup brings Gen. Efraín Ríos Montt to power in Guatemala, and gives the Reagan administration the opportunity to increase military aid. Ríos Montt's evangelical beliefs do not prevent him from accelerating the counterinsurgency campaign.

1983
Another coup in Guatemala replaces Ríos Montt. The new President, Oscar Mejía Víctores, was trained by the U.S. and seems to have cleared his coup beforehand with U.S. authorities.

1983
U.S. troops take over tiny Granada. Rather oddly, it intervenes shortly after a coup has overthrown the previous, socialist leader. One of the justifications for the action is the building of a new airport with Cuban help, which Granada claimed was for tourism and Reagan argued was for Soviet use. Later the U.S. announces plans to finish the airport... to develop tourism.

1983
Boland Amendment prohibits CIA and Defense Dept. from spending money to overthrow the government of Nicaragua-- a law the Reagan administration cheerfully violates.

1984
CIA mines three Nicaraguan harbors. Nicaragua takes this action to the World Court, which brings an $18 billion judgment against the U.S. The U.S. refuses to recognize the Court's jurisdiction in the case.

1984
U.S. spends $10 million to orchestrate elections in El Salvador-- something of a farce, since left-wing parties are under heavy repression, and the military has already declared that it will not answer to the elected president.

1989
U.S. invades Panama to dislodge CIA boy gone wrong Manuel Noriega, an event which marks the evolution of the U.S.'s favorite excuse from Communism to drugs.

1996
The U.S. battles global Communism by extending most-favored-nation trading status for China, and tightening the trade embargo on Castro's Cuba.

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35More food for thought about Biden - Page 2 Empty Re: More food for thought about Biden on 6/21/2019, 10:50 am

Deus X wrote:
gatorfan wrote:
Put the fire in your hair out and be honest. read this - it might help if you are objective about it
.
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/449506-justice-dept-lawyer-suggests-toothbrush-and-soap-not-required-for

It's not as simplified as you attempt to make it.

Why don't you climb down from your Ivory Tower and volunteer to house a dozen illegal children until their idiot parent's who brought them here can have their cases resolved? Or would you rather turn them loose so they can be picked up by human traffickers?

You have no solutions of course......

YOU IGNORANT ASSHOLE!

LOL, same old Douche different day - try to stay on task loser. You could expand your list to the entire world you ignorant freak, the U.S. has always had a habit of sticking its nose in other governments business, usually with negative results. Try to educate yourself a little. The thread was discussing current affairs and now you have shown YOU have no solution either, SAL Jr.....

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36More food for thought about Biden - Page 2 Empty Re: More food for thought about Biden on 6/21/2019, 10:55 am

Sal wrote:I'm sorry, but it's time to pick a fucking side.

You're not sorry at all, or you wouldn't talk to me this way.  

I already HAVE picked a side, sir, and it's been perfectly obvious to most anyone paying attention that I'm as incensed and frightened by what's happening as you are.  But if you allow your anger and fear to turn you against PEOPLE ON YOUR OWN SIDE who DESPISE THIS PRESIDENT AND EVERYTHING HE STANDS FOR AND EVERYTHING HE'S DONE TO RUIN THIS NATION just as intensely as you do, you've now officially gone off the deep end, and are doing your cause far more harm than good.   Seriously.

Not that you care - because apparently I'm no better than a Nazi sympathizer in your clouded eyes - but I'm actually ashamed of you, Sal.

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37More food for thought about Biden - Page 2 Empty Re: More food for thought about Biden on 6/21/2019, 11:04 am

lol

It didn't take long for our forum's two "I didn't vote for Trump, but make excuses for everything he does" nazi sympathizers to come goosestepping along, did it?

The last year of the Obama administration saw a three decade low in illegal crossings.

The solution for this Trump created humanitarian crisis is in comprehensive immigration reform - addressing everything from the asylum courts to the law-abiding immigrants who have been working and paying taxes in the U.S. for decades.

The Republican party has no stomach for any of that because they've become a revanchist party of segregation.

Statistics indicate that only 15-20% of the immigrants attempting to cross the border today will ultimately be granted asylum, but the immigration courts are so overwhelmed that less than 2% are being deported.

So, the rest will remain in the U.S. while their cases are adjudicated, which is taking years.

Trump and the republicans don't want to fix this problem, they want to exacerbate it for political gain.

But, pkr and gator think granting poor people access to health care is fascism.

Time to pick a side.

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38More food for thought about Biden - Page 2 Empty Re: More food for thought about Biden on 6/21/2019, 11:18 am

Sal wrote:lol

It didn't take long for our forum's two "I didn't vote for Trump, but make excuses for everything he does" nazi sympathizers to come goosestepping along, did it?

The last year of the Obama administration saw a three decade low in illegal crossings.

The solution for this Trump created humanitarian crisis is in comprehensive immigration reform - addressing everything from the asylum courts to the law-abiding immigrants who have been working and paying taxes in the U.S. for decades.

The Republican party has no stomach for any of that because they've become a revanchist party of segregation.

Statistics indicate that only 15-20% of the immigrants attempting to cross the border today will ultimately be granted asylum, but the immigration courts are so overwhelmed that less than 2% are being deported.

So, the rest will remain in the U.S. while their cases are adjudicated, which is taking years.

Trump and the republicans don't want to fix this problem, they want to exacerbate it for political gain.

But, pkr and gator think granting poor people access to health care is fascism.

Time to pick a side.

I notice you avoided reason and instead turn to making up BS to suit your self-imagined purity. If you had a clue (and you don't) you would know I've always argued for a clear, reasonable, and affordable path to citizenship. I've argued "Dreamers" should not be deported. Of course in your narrow world view you don't understand the dynamics of the recent large influx of illegals at the border - it's about ECONOMIC TURMOIL and civil unrest down there. Trumpet has nothing to do with the influx. He definitely hasn't come close to working the issue but then he rarely puts even 5% effort into anything but tweeting from what I've seen.

I mentioned you have no solutions so offer one - what is your solution to thousands of illegals coming in??? Just let them go and hope for the best? You do realize that some of the kids here were brought by people who just dumped them and moved on. You don't care protecting them - you just want to act like you are somehow more wise than the pitifully few Border Agents trying to manage a problem with too few people and too few other resources.

Pitiful.



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39More food for thought about Biden - Page 2 Empty Re: More food for thought about Biden on 6/21/2019, 11:51 am

Sal wrote:When so-called conservatism has drifted so far right that we’re on the verge of fascism, and you feel the need to identify as a “centrist” or a “moderate”, the truth is you are complicit and a coward.




No Sal. I'm not going to allow what they do to influence what I believe. That's not being complicit or a coward. I'd be a lot more offended by your comment if I didn't know how much I've involved myself in politics since I was 18 and worked for Nixon (yes, I was a Republican at one time. I've "repented.") I don't know how many threats you've gotten from people who read your local papers, but here in Pensacola, I've gotten a lot. They never stopped me from writing what I thought. You see, I know myself. You don't have my permission to make me feel either inferior (as Eleanor Roosevelt said), or complicit, or a coward. So don't waste your breath.


And a good old Fuck You right back.

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40More food for thought about Biden - Page 2 Empty Re: More food for thought about Biden on 6/21/2019, 12:18 pm

Fascism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of radical right-wing, authoritarian ultranationalism[1][2] characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy[3] which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.[4] The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I, before it spread to other European countries.[4] Opposed to liberalism, Marxism and anarchism, fascism is placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.[4][5]

Fascists saw World War I as a revolution that brought massive changes to the nature of war, society, the state and technology. The advent of total war and the total mass mobilization of society had broken down the distinction between civilians and combatants. A "military citizenship" arose in which all citizens were involved with the military in some manner during the war.[6][7] The war had resulted in the rise of a powerful state capable of mobilizing millions of people to serve on the front lines and providing economic production and logistics to support them, as well as having unprecedented authority to intervene in the lives of citizens.[6][7]

Fascists believe that liberal democracy is obsolete and regard the complete mobilization of society under a totalitarian one-party state as necessary to prepare a nation for armed conflict and to respond effectively to economic difficulties.[8] Such a state is led by a strong leader—such as a dictator and a martial government composed of the members of the governing fascist party—to forge national unity and maintain a stable and orderly society.[8] Fascism rejects assertions that violence is automatically negative in nature and views political violence, war and imperialism as means that can achieve national rejuvenation.[9][10] Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky (national economic self-sufficiency) through protectionist and interventionist economic policies.[11]

Since the end of World War II in 1945, few parties have openly described themselves as fascist, and the term is instead now usually used pejoratively by political opponents. The descriptions neo-fascist or post-fascist are sometimes applied more formally to describe parties of the far-right with ideologies similar to, or rooted in, 20th-century fascist movements.[4][12]
...

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41More food for thought about Biden - Page 2 Empty Re: More food for thought about Biden on 6/21/2019, 12:30 pm

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42More food for thought about Biden - Page 2 Empty Re: More food for thought about Biden on 6/21/2019, 1:09 pm

Floridatexan wrote:Fascism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of radical right-wing, authoritarian ultranationalism[1][2] characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy[3] which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.[4] The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I, before it spread to other European countries.[4] Opposed to liberalism, Marxism and anarchism, fascism is placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.[4][5]

Fascists saw World War I as a revolution that brought massive changes to the nature of war, society, the state and technology. The advent of total war and the total mass mobilization of society had broken down the distinction between civilians and combatants. A "military citizenship" arose in which all citizens were involved with the military in some manner during the war.[6][7] The war had resulted in the rise of a powerful state capable of mobilizing millions of people to serve on the front lines and providing economic production and logistics to support them, as well as having unprecedented authority to intervene in the lives of citizens.[6][7]

Fascists believe that liberal democracy is obsolete and regard the complete mobilization of society under a totalitarian one-party state as necessary to prepare a nation for armed conflict and to respond effectively to economic difficulties.[8] Such a state is led by a strong leader—such as a dictator and a martial government composed of the members of the governing fascist party—to forge national unity and maintain a stable and orderly society.[8] Fascism rejects assertions that violence is automatically negative in nature and views political violence, war and imperialism as means that can achieve national rejuvenation.[9][10] Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky (national economic self-sufficiency) through protectionist and interventionist economic policies.[11]

Since the end of World War II in 1945, few parties have openly described themselves as fascist, and the term is instead now usually used pejoratively by political opponents. The descriptions neo-fascist or post-fascist are sometimes applied more formally to describe parties of the far-right with ideologies similar to, or rooted in, 20th-century fascist movements.[4][12]
...







More food for thought about Biden - Page 2 Gop_na10

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43More food for thought about Biden - Page 2 Empty Re: More food for thought about Biden on 6/21/2019, 1:22 pm

bigdog wrote:
Sal wrote:When so-called conservatism has drifted so far right that we’re on the verge of fascism, and you feel the need to identify as a “centrist” or a “moderate”, the truth is you are complicit and a coward.
 



No Sal. I'm not going to allow what they do to influence what I believe. That's not being complicit or a coward. I'd be a lot more offended by your comment if I didn't know how much I've involved myself in politics since I was 18 and worked for Nixon (yes, I was a Republican at one time. I've "repented.") I don't know how many threats you've gotten from people who read your local papers, but here in Pensacola, I've gotten a lot. They never stopped me from writing what I thought.  You see,  I know myself. You don't have my permission to make me feel either inferior (as Eleanor Roosevelt said), or complicit, or a coward. So don't waste your breath.


And a good old Fuck You right back.

Thanks for the resume.

Now, kindly step aside while we fix what you've broken.

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44More food for thought about Biden - Page 2 Empty Re: More food for thought about Biden on 6/21/2019, 1:42 pm

Sal wrote:
bigdog wrote:
Sal wrote:When so-called conservatism has drifted so far right that we’re on the verge of fascism, and you feel the need to identify as a “centrist” or a “moderate”, the truth is you are complicit and a coward.
 



No Sal. I'm not going to allow what they do to influence what I believe. That's not being complicit or a coward. I'd be a lot more offended by your comment if I didn't know how much I've involved myself in politics since I was 18 and worked for Nixon (yes, I was a Republican at one time. I've "repented.") I don't know how many threats you've gotten from people who read your local papers, but here in Pensacola, I've gotten a lot. They never stopped me from writing what I thought.  You see,  I know myself. You don't have my permission to make me feel either inferior (as Eleanor Roosevelt said), or complicit, or a coward. So don't waste your breath.


And a good old Fuck You right back.

Thanks for the resume.

Now, kindly step aside while we fix what you've broken.






I'm still backing Harris and I don't trust Biden. We will know more after the 2 nights of Dem debates. Does anyone else think Warren has a big advantage since she is the super hero on her debate night?

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45More food for thought about Biden - Page 2 Empty Re: More food for thought about Biden on 6/21/2019, 4:36 pm

Floridatexan wrote:



BS. I quit listening when the dude in the tractor hat (a philosopher, I assume?) said that moderates give in to the right. No, they don't. Nor do they allow the right to divide them so far from the rest of America by immediately sailing left that this country is torn into pieces. Americans should thank centrists for their country still being here. I hold to the same values and beliefs that I did when Barack Obama was president and when Bill Clinton was president. I will not say that I am for paying reparations to African Americans just because Donald Trump is trying to eliminate them from his society. I won't say that I am for trans-gender people using the same bathrooms as me just because gay people have been treated horribly in the past. When all public baths are for all sexes, I may be forced to use the bathroom with a male or a transgender person, but not before. I'm a 69 year old woman and I have a right to MY privacy as well. That kind of issue being taken up by the Democratic party is what brought people like Bernie Sanders and Jill Stein to the forefront last election, and Stein's votes in the general would have kept us from experiencing the last two and a half years of horror. I am for full health coverage for all Americans and so are MOST of Americans, who are, for the most part, somewhere in the middle of the political spectrum.
If you want a civil war against America, I might go along with you if Donald Trump subverts the election results in 2020. But as long as we have a chance to maintain our democracy, as long as the vote is STILL GOING  TO BE HELD, and as long as people like Steven Colbert are not in jail, it's not time to start shooting at our fellow Americans. It sure as hell isn't time to change my views to yours and go as far to the left as they are to the right. Trumpsters are not the majority in this country, but neither are so called Socialist Democrats. If you don't like the Democratic party anymore, there is an organized Socialist party in America. Go join it. Work for it. I cannot tell you how much pure fun it is to work with a grassroots political group trying to get a candidate nominated. Be proud of what you really are. My brother is a member of the Socialist party. He's proud of it. But just be kind and stop trying to tear up the Democratic party. Snowflakes already cost us the 2016 election,  young people that wouldn't vote for Hillary because she wasn't pure enough. Don't cost us the next election too.

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46More food for thought about Biden - Page 2 Empty Re: More food for thought about Biden on 6/21/2019, 4:53 pm

Telstar wrote:
Sal wrote:
bigdog wrote:
Sal wrote:When so-called conservatism has drifted so far right that we’re on the verge of fascism, and you feel the need to identify as a “centrist” or a “moderate”, the truth is you are complicit and a coward.
 



No Sal. I'm not going to allow what they do to influence what I believe. That's not being complicit or a coward. I'd be a lot more offended by your comment if I didn't know how much I've involved myself in politics since I was 18 and worked for Nixon (yes, I was a Republican at one time. I've "repented.") I don't know how many threats you've gotten from people who read your local papers, but here in Pensacola, I've gotten a lot. They never stopped me from writing what I thought.  You see,  I know myself. You don't have my permission to make me feel either inferior (as Eleanor Roosevelt said), or complicit, or a coward. So don't waste your breath.


And a good old Fuck You right back.

Thanks for the resume.

Now, kindly step aside while we fix what you've broken.






I'm still backing Harris and I don't trust Biden. We will know more after the 2 nights of Dem debates. Does anyone else think Warren has a big advantage since she is the super hero on her debate night?



I would be extremely happy with Harris if she ran as Biden's VP. But you know, she is not far enough to the left for some people. Very Happy

I think Warren got screwed by being picked to be the only viable candidate on her debate night. I doubt I will watch until the second night, and I think a lot of others won't be watching either.
If she looks better than the others, everyone will say, oh well, we knew that. If she trips up to any of those no-names, she may find herself in some trouble. This isn't a good scenario for her, and she deserves to be in the top tier..

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47More food for thought about Biden - Page 2 Empty Re: More food for thought about Biden on 6/21/2019, 4:56 pm

Sal wrote:
bigdog wrote:
Sal wrote:When so-called conservatism has drifted so far right that we’re on the verge of fascism, and you feel the need to identify as a “centrist” or a “moderate”, the truth is you are complicit and a coward.
 



No Sal. I'm not going to allow what they do to influence what I believe. That's not being complicit or a coward. I'd be a lot more offended by your comment if I didn't know how much I've involved myself in politics since I was 18 and worked for Nixon (yes, I was a Republican at one time. I've "repented.") I don't know how many threats you've gotten from people who read your local papers, but here in Pensacola, I've gotten a lot. They never stopped me from writing what I thought.  You see,  I know myself. You don't have my permission to make me feel either inferior (as Eleanor Roosevelt said), or complicit, or a coward. So don't waste your breath.


And a good old Fuck You right back.

Thanks for the resume.

Now, kindly step aside while we fix what you've broken.



What are you doing to fix it Sal? Where's your resume?
Talking to people on an internet forum never changes anyone's mind.

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48More food for thought about Biden - Page 2 Empty Re: More food for thought about Biden on 6/21/2019, 5:11 pm

bigdog wrote:
I think Warren got screwed by being picked to be the only viable candidate on her debate night. I doubt I will watch until the second night, and I think a lot of others won't be watching either.
If she looks better than the others, everyone will say, oh well, we knew that. If she trips up to any of those no-names, she may find herself in some trouble. This isn't a good scenario for her, and she deserves to be in the top tier..

I'm wondering about that. I'm thinking Warren may actually get a boost that she might not have gotten otherwise... unless she somehow does badly against that pack, which I don't expect her to. I agree she's a top-tier candidate, and I think she'll get to debate the others plenty down the road, but starting out getting to shine against people who aren't going to get as much attention might help her stand out even more. If she were on the other night, there'd be so much "star power" she might blend in more. So, she may have lucked out with the way things happened.

In any case, I expect her to be a formidable debater. She's quick and knows her stuff. I'm not certain all her plans will work, but at least she does have plans and isn't relying on an interventionist hippie god like Bernie seems to do with everything.

I like Biden a lot -- I have some reservations due to his chronic gaffeing, which isn't going to stop, but his electability factor puts him in my top rank -- but I'm thinking he may underperform at the debate. Lately he's just been down on energy and doesn't seem to have enough fire. And he's trying too hard to be "agreeable," which is coming across as flakey. This whole "I could get along even with segregationists" shit is just wrong-headed. I am totally in the you-kick-the-shit-out-of-Nazis camp, don't mind if it gets violent, so Biden's not winning any points there. I know he's no racist, though, so I'm not damning him for it... but it's a wrong tactic. Between wishy-washiness like that and a certain hesitancy he's developed, I'm kind of expecting him to get walloped a bit in this debate.

I do think he'll do better in the ones that follow, though. Remember when Obama debated Romney the first time? Obama was trying to be too "calm" and non-confrontational... and it cost him. The next debate, a different Obama showed up and kicked Romney's ass all over the place. I'm expecting similar out of Biden -- not bring enough the first time, learn from it and rev up going forward. I've got faith in him that he can do that.

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49More food for thought about Biden - Page 2 Empty Re: More food for thought about Biden on 6/21/2019, 5:18 pm

https://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-warren-beating-polls-elect-woman-1445065

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50More food for thought about Biden - Page 2 Empty Re: More food for thought about Biden on 6/21/2019, 5:30 pm

bigdog wrote:
Telstar wrote:
Sal wrote:
bigdog wrote:
Sal wrote:When so-called conservatism has drifted so far right that we’re on the verge of fascism, and you feel the need to identify as a “centrist” or a “moderate”, the truth is you are complicit and a coward.
 



No Sal. I'm not going to allow what they do to influence what I believe. That's not being complicit or a coward. I'd be a lot more offended by your comment if I didn't know how much I've involved myself in politics since I was 18 and worked for Nixon (yes, I was a Republican at one time. I've "repented.") I don't know how many threats you've gotten from people who read your local papers, but here in Pensacola, I've gotten a lot. They never stopped me from writing what I thought.  You see,  I know myself. You don't have my permission to make me feel either inferior (as Eleanor Roosevelt said), or complicit, or a coward. So don't waste your breath.


And a good old Fuck You right back.

Thanks for the resume.

Now, kindly step aside while we fix what you've broken.






I'm still backing Harris and I don't trust Biden. We will know more after the 2 nights of Dem debates. Does anyone else think Warren has a big advantage since she is the super hero on her debate night?



I would be extremely happy with Harris if she ran as Biden's VP. But you know, she is not far enough to the left for some people. Very Happy

I think Warren got screwed by being picked to be the only viable candidate on her debate night. I doubt I will watch until the second night, and I think a lot of others won't be watching either.
If she looks better than the others, everyone will say, oh well, we knew that. If she trips up to any of those no-names, she may find herself in some trouble. This isn't a good scenario for her, and she deserves to be in the top tier..




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