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"The Cruelty is the Point."

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1 "The Cruelty is the Point." on 10/4/2018, 12:55 pm

I was sickened (but sadly not surprised) earlier this week when a bunch of my Mississippi "neighbors" cheered as the president mocked Doctor Ford at his rally in Southhaven. Unfortunately, these are the "good Christian family values" I've run into far too often, living here. It's mindless mob rule -- they don't care what kind of evil hateful shit they're doing as long as they've got another one doing it with them so they can feel like they're a "part of something." It's typical Southern conservative shit -- conformity. It's the main thing they're about. They freak out if they don't get it. They're uncomfortable without a bandwagon to ride... but if they can find one, they don't give a shit if it's going to a puppy-murder-fest, as long as they can feel like they're a "part of something." Otherwise they're afraid.

Whatever you think about Doctor Ford's claims, most reasonable people would agree that she's been through something that shouldn't be mocked. If you don't think Kavanaugh did it, fine -- disbelieve it, and since it's all hearsay and can't be proven one way or another, you'll probably never be proven wrong... or right, either. But, on the chance that something did happen -- or for the sake of people to whom things like this most definitely did happen -- you don't make sport of her pain. Not if you're a decent human being, you don't. Not if you're going to claim you're for Jesus, or "family values," or all the other virtuous things conservatives love to claim they're for while very rarely showing any actions to back up their supposed beliefs.

Watching those bastards in Southhaven reminded me of the old White Citizens' Council hate-fests that went on here decades back. That old spirit's never really died, and it's spread from just being a racist thing to targeting pretty much anybody who wants any kind of rights: woman, gays, etc. Be anything but a white male and stand up for yourself and they're gonna mob up and beat you down. For some reason, other people being equal's a threat to them.

And, I see it reminded Adam Serwer of some of the same things. His article pretty well nails it. I hunted up the photos he's talking about -- I just put them as links because they're pretty gruesome and you might rather not look, so I wanted 'em available but not posted to distract from the modern part of the message.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/the-cruelty-is-the-point/572104/

The artifacts that persist in my memory, the way a bright flash does when you close your eyes, are the photographs of lynchings. But it’s not the burned, mutilated bodies that stick with me. It’s the faces of the white men in the crowd. There’s the photo of the lynching of Thomas Shipp and Abram Smith in Indiana in 1930, in which a white man can be seen grinning at the camera as he tenderly holds the hand of his wife or girlfriend. (http://abhmuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/7-Beitler-photo-best.jpg) There’s the undated photo from Duluth, Minnesota, in which grinning white men stand next to the mutilated, half-naked bodies of two men lashed to a post in the street—one of the white men is straining to get into the picture, his smile cutting from ear to ear. (https://sheezacoldpiece.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/img_9784.jpeg) There’s the photo of a crowd of white men huddled behind the smoldering corpse of a man burned to death; one of them is wearing a smart suit, a fedora hat, and a bright smile. (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/52/Williambrownlynched.jpg/1200px-Williambrownlynched.jpg )


Their names have mostly been lost to time. But these grinning men were someone’s brother, son, husband, father. They were human beings, people who took immense pleasure in the utter cruelty of torturing others to death—and were so proud of doing so that they posed for photographs with their handiwork, jostling to ensure they caught the eye of the lens, so that the world would know they’d been there. Their cruelty made them feel good, it made them feel proud, it made them feel happy. And it made them feel closer to one another.

The Trump era is such a whirlwind of cruelty that it can be hard to keep track. This week alone, the news broke that the Trump administration was seeking to ethnically cleanse more than 193,000 American children of immigrants whose temporary protected status had been revoked by the administration, that the Department of Homeland Security had lied about creating a database of children that would make it possible to unite them with the families the Trump administration had arbitrarily destroyed, that the White House was considering a blanket ban on visas for Chinese students, and that it would deny visas to the same-sex partners of foreign officials. At a rally in Mississippi, a crowd of Trump supporters cheered as the president mocked Christine Blasey Ford, the psychology professor who has said that Brett Kavanaugh, whom Trump has nominated to a lifetime appointment on the Supreme Court, attempted to rape her when she was a teenager. “Lock her up!” they shouted.

Ford testified to the Senate, utilizing her professional expertise to describe the encounter, that one of the parts of the incident she remembered most was Kavanaugh and his friend Mark Judge laughing at her as Kavanaugh fumbled at her clothing. “Indelible in the hippocampus is the laughter,” Ford said, referring to the part of the brain that processes emotion and memory, “the uproarious laughter between the two, and their having fun at my expense.” And then at Tuesday’s rally, the president made his supporters laugh at her.

Even those who believe that Ford fabricated her account, or was mistaken in its details, can see that the president’s mocking of her testimony renders all sexual-assault survivors collateral damage. Anyone afraid of coming forward, afraid that she would not be believed, can now look to the president to see her fears realized. Once malice is embraced as a virtue, it is impossible to contain.

The cruelty of the Trump administration’s policies, and the ritual rhetorical flaying of his targets before his supporters, are intimately connected. As Lili Loofbourow wrote of the Kavanaugh incident in Slate, adolescent male cruelty toward women is a bonding mechanism, a vehicle for intimacy through contempt. The white men in the lynching photos are smiling not merely because of what they have done, but because they have done it together.

We can hear the spectacle of cruel laughter throughout the Trump era. There were the border-patrol agents cracking up at the crying immigrant children separated from their families, and the Trump adviser who delighted white supremacists when he mocked a child with Down syndrome who was separated from her mother. There were the police who laughed uproariously when the president encouraged them to abuse suspects, and the Fox News hosts mocking a survivor of the Pulse Nightclub massacre (and in the process inundating him with threats), the survivors of sexual assault protesting to Senator Jeff Flake, the women who said the president had sexually assaulted them, and the teen survivors of the Parkland school shooting. There was the president mocking Puerto Rican accents shortly after thousands were killed and tens of thousands displaced by Hurricane Maria, the black athletes protesting unjustified killings by the police, the women of the #MeToo movement who have come forward with stories of sexual abuse, and the disabled reporter whose crime was reporting on Trump truthfully. It is not just that the perpetrators of this cruelty enjoy it; it is that they enjoy it with one another. Their shared laughter at the suffering of others is an adhesive that binds them to one another, and to Trump.

Taking joy in that suffering is more human than most would like to admit. Somewhere on the wide spectrum between adolescent teasing and the smiling white men in the lynching photographs are the Trump supporters whose community is built by rejoicing in the anguish of those they see as unlike them, who have found in their shared cruelty an answer to the loneliness and atomization of modern life.

The laughter undergirds the daily spectacle of insincerity, as the president and his aides pledge fealty to bedrock democratic principles they have no intention of respecting. The president who demanded the execution of five black and Latino teenagers for a crime they didn’t commit decrying “false accusations,” when his Supreme Court nominee stands accused; his supporters who fancy themselves champions of free speech meet references to Hillary Clinton or a woman whose only crime was coming forward to offer her own story of abuse with screams of “Lock her up!” The political movement that elected a president who wanted to ban immigration by adherents of an entire religion, who encourages police to brutalize suspects, and who has destroyed thousands of immigrant families for violations of the law less serious than those of which he and his coterie stand accused, now laments the state of due process.

This isn’t incoherent. It reflects a clear principle: Only the president and his allies, his supporters, and their anointed are entitled to the rights and protections of the law, and if necessary, immunity from it. The rest of us are entitled only to cruelty, by their whim. This is how the powerful have ever kept the powerless divided and in their place, and enriched themselves in the process.

A blockbuster New York Times investigation on Tuesday reported that President Trump’s wealth was largely inherited through fraudulent schemes, that he became a millionaire while still a child, and that his fortune persists in spite of his fumbling entrepreneurship, not because of it. The stories are not unconnected. The president and his advisers have sought to enrich themselves at taxpayer expense; they have attempted to corrupt federal law-enforcement agencies to protect themselves and their cohorts, and they have exploited the nation’s darkest impulses in the pursuit of profit. But their ability to get away with this fraud is tied to cruelty.

Trump’s only true skill is the con; his only fundamental belief is that the United States is the birthright of straight, white, Christian men, and his only real, authentic pleasure is in cruelty. It is that cruelty, and the delight it brings them, that binds his most ardent supporters to him, in shared scorn for those they hate and fear: immigrants, black voters, feminists, and treasonous white men who empathize with any of those who would steal their birthright. The president’s ability to execute that cruelty through word and deed makes them euphoric. It makes them feel good, it makes them feel proud, it makes them feel happy, it makes them feel united. And as long as he makes them feel that way, they will let him get away with anything, no matter what it costs them.



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2 Re: "The Cruelty is the Point." on 10/4/2018, 1:30 pm

Their cruelty made them feel good, it made them feel proud, it made them feel happy. And it made them feel closer to one another.


When did the resist movement become such wussies. Cruel? The failure of one Democrat to ask Dr. Ford one question about her drinking that summer, did she black out, did she only have one beer at these gatherings, or did she get intoxicated? How if she cannot remember any of the details be certain as to being under the influence of one beer?

You see there was no due process, because those questions NEVER should have been allowed because of relevancy.....the same relevancy which should have caused restraint by frothing mad dog democrats who were putting on shows for future campaigns when they asked the same of the Judge. This meto double standard will be their demise, and despite the President being a certified moron, the substance of the issues he raises are valid.

I mean wussies will not win the mid terms....it is that simple, and sadly the democrats just chit in their lunch pail.........Usually, by this time people would quit arguing and admit their mistakes.........but in hubris do we trust has become the new Democratic Party motto. Suspect

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3 Re: "The Cruelty is the Point." on 10/4/2018, 1:44 pm

2seaoat wrote:Their cruelty made them feel good, it made them feel proud, it made them feel happy. And it made them feel closer to one another.


When did the resist movement become such wussies.  Cruel?   The failure of one Democrat to ask Dr. Ford one question about her drinking that summer, did she black out, did she only have one beer at these gatherings, or did she get intoxicated?  How if she cannot remember any of the details be certain as to being under the influence of one beer?

You see there was no due process, because those questions NEVER should have been allowed because of relevancy.....the same relevancy which should have caused restraint by frothing mad dog democrats who were putting on shows for future campaigns when they asked the same of the Judge.  This meto double standard will be their demise, and despite the President being a certified moron, the substance of the issues he raises are valid.

I mean wussies will not win the mid terms....it is that simple, and sadly the democrats just chit in their lunch pail.........Usually, by this time people would quit arguing and admit their mistakes.........but in hubris do we trust has become the new Democratic Party motto. Suspect

There's a lot in the article besides just the Kavanaugh thing. You seem more a little obsessed, like blinders-on. Or, maybe you're just enjoying arguing, which is fair enough and what I'm figurin'.

But if you want to characterize defending women against sexual assault as "wussy," then you can, but I won't be joinin' ya.

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4 Re: "The Cruelty is the Point." on 10/4/2018, 1:56 pm

But if you want to characterize defending women against sexual assault as "wussy," then you can, but I won't be joinin' ya.

Then you will be helping Donald Trump win the 2020 election. I argued for three months after the 2016 election that it was the collective hubris of the democrats, but even worse MSNBC who in the perfected Rachel Maddow syndrome they scrutinized gender and the use of bathrooms, and utterly ignored bread and butter blue collar traditional issues......now it is the meto movement and the backlash is evident and will be shown at the polls as this chit show was in my opinion as bad as anything done by Senator McCarthy and his mob......my principles of equal protection of the law guide my life and this was the worse political abuse of the same in my adult life. It was a shameful display. Judge Judy talking heads and people who just are not very bright. There never was a surprise in this chit show.....the purpose was declared before it started, and now they will be judged by history.

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5 Re: "The Cruelty is the Point." on 10/4/2018, 2:36 pm

2seaoat wrote:But if you want to characterize defending women against sexual assault as "wussy," then you can, but I won't be joinin' ya.

Then you will be helping Donald Trump win the 2020 election.

If the alternative is leaving women who've been sexually assaulted undefended and twisting in the wind, then I guess I'll just have to take that risk, 'cuz I'm not about to ever give up that fight. I explained my reasons for that elsewhere.




 I argued for three months after the 2016 election that it was the collective hubris of the democrats,


Blaming it on hubris has some merit; Dems were definitely overconfident. Blaming it on women standing up for themselves doesn't have that merit, though. And Dems fighting for those women will bring more women to the polls, if anything. Remember the Women's March? The ladies are motivated. And more power to 'em.


but even worse MSNBC who in the perfected Rachel Maddow syndrome they scrutinized gender and the use of bathrooms, and utterly ignored bread and butter blue collar traditional issues......now it is the meto movement and the backlash is evident


So women should just shut up if they've been abused? Is that what you're saying? I'm not saying it is, not trying to put words in your mouth, but just giving you a chance to clarify, 'cuz that's what it sounds like.

It's like people who claim black people are being racist when they say "Black Lives Matter." I don't get how that conclusion comes from that input.

If you don't like MeToo, then what recourse would you "allow" women who've been sexually victimized? I'm just trying to gauge this. 'Cuz overall I like you, I admire a lot of your tenacity and such, and I wouldn't want to misunderstand you.


and will be shown at the polls as this chit show was in my opinion as bad as anything done by Senator McCarthy and his mob...

I don't see addressing a long-standing plight of half the human race as nearly the same thing as seeing Commies in the woodpile, but... I dunno, heck of a comparison, there. I see one as justified, one as not.


...my principles of equal protection of the law guide my life

I believe you, which is why I'm not sure why you seem to see Ford's accusation as bullshit and Kavanaugh's as gospel. It's he-said-she-said but you've definitely picked a side. Is this an Animal Farm-y "some animals equal protection is more equal than others" deal?


and this was the worse political abuse of the same in my adult life.  It was a shameful display.  Judge Judy talking heads and people who just are not very bright.  There never was a surprise in this chit show.....the purpose was declared before it started, and now they will be judged by history.

Dunno. Guess we'll see how it plays out in November, but I'm not in agreement. I think they'll ram-rod the guy through and he'll be a canker in the body politic for decades -- and a poor choice if for no other reason than that -- but just because they can do it doesn't mean it's a wise idea.

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6 Re: "The Cruelty is the Point." on 10/4/2018, 2:53 pm

I believe you, which is why I'm not sure why you seem to see Ford's accusation as bullshit

I have made this crystal clear. Her testimony was irrelevant. All rules of evidence, probative value, and equal protection were thrown out the window when you go on a fishing expedition from almost forty years ago. Do you understand as a Juvenile his file would have been sealed and expunged after five years, and that America has set the standard that we do not use juvenile records against adults. Due process was denied the judge. Judge Judy standards of evidence and relevance, and now the fbi has confirmed that memories do not confirm Dr Ford's accusations. No, this was a horrible abuse of due process and now to hide behind the false issue of giving credence to victims.......that simply is embarrassing, and sadly there will be no constraint on Trump in the next two years. Brilliant.....not.

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7 Re: "The Cruelty is the Point." on 10/4/2018, 3:17 pm

2seaoat wrote:  No, this was a horrible abuse of due process...

But you're okay with this:

4. If Monica Lewinksy says you inserted a cigar into her vagina while you were in the Oval Office area, would she be lying?
5. If Monica Lewinksy says that you had phone sex with her on approximately 15 occasions, would she be lying?
6. If Monica Lewinksy says that on several occasions in the Oval Office area, you used your fingers to stimulate her vagina and bring her to orgasm, would she be lying?
7. If Monica Lewinksy says that she gave you oral sex on nine occasions in the Oval Office area, would she by lying?
8. If Monica Lewinsky says that you ejaculated into her mouth on two occasions in the Oval Office area, would she be lying?
9. If Monica Lewinksy says that on several occasions you had her give oral sex, made her stop, and then ejaculated into the sink in the bathroom off the Oval Office, would she be lying?
10. If Monica Lewinsky says that you masturbated into a trashcan in your secretary’s office, would she be lying?


https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/kavanaugh-clinton-questions-713428/


Was THIS due process:

In a speech that August in Kentucky, McConnell would say: "One of my proudest moments was when I looked Barack Obama in the eye and I said, 'Mr. President, you will not fill the Supreme Court vacancy.' "

https://www.npr.org/2018/06/29/624467256/what-happened-with-merrick-garland-in-2016-and-why-it-matters-now


Where the hell have you been for the last 50 years?

What a stupid complaint, politics and due process don't even live in the same ZIP Code.

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8 Re: "The Cruelty is the Point." on 10/4/2018, 3:17 pm

It's really amazing, a woman can pop up out of the wood work after decades and say "this guy "assaulted" me and he's automatically guilty due to political agendas. All it would take to convince me she's NOT lying is a SINGLE police report or even a school report that states she made the claim when it happened.

Apparently the FBI (who is no friend of Trumpet) couldn't verify her claims, and you can bet they looked into the matter. The real issue should be how much harm she has done REAL victims who may not report a REAL assault after watching the Democrats put on their farcical show.

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9 Re: "The Cruelty is the Point." on 10/4/2018, 4:18 pm

gatorfan wrote:It's really amazing, a woman

... or three women...

can pop up out of the wood work after decades and say "this guy "assaulted" me and he's automatically guilty due to political agendas. All it would take to convince me she's NOT lying is a SINGLE police report or even a school report that states she made the claim when it happened.

I'm not saying he's automatically guilty. Fact is, after all that time, we'll never know if he's guilty or not. Do I believe her? Yeah. Especially after watching Kavanaugh's behavior when he denied it... and especially after take-one of his "performance" was, "Why, ah am ah virgin, ah spent my college days at the church crocheting afghans for orphans an' even though ah am married ah have never seen my wife's... what is it that women have, a vagina, do they call it?" He went a bridge-too-far with the innocent act.

But, that's FAR from the only reason this guy shouldn't be on the court. He pitched a tizzy, misrepresented himself, lied several times, and spouted Alex-Jones-(and-damn-near-Chuck-Jones-they-were-so-cartoonish) conspiracy theories that the Prez obviously coached him to say. Dude ain't fit for the court, and it's not all because he may-or-may-not be a sexual assaulter.

As for police reports, a lot of these things don't get reported because of exactly how we're seeing Dr. Ford being treated now. Since it wasn't a case of penetration and there was no DNA or anything, chances are they'd have treated it as a he-said-she-said-and-he's-a-he-and-is-in-a-rich-boy-frat-so-who-cares-what-she-says case, and he'd have skipped away. Women are hardly allowed to be their own witnesses because guys always wanna say "the poor guy's being railroaded."

Apparently the FBI (who is no friend of Trumpet)

Some aren't, but I have suspicions... Trump was all too eager to have the FBI look into it, and he's never comfortable with such things unless he's rigged the game.



couldn't verify her claims, and you can bet they looked into the matter. The real issue should be how much harm she has done REAL victims who may not report a REAL assault after watching the Democrats put on their farcical show.

If they don't report a real assault it's also because they see it's probably gonna do 'em no good... especially if the case goes all the way to the Supreme Court, because they've packed the bench.

There's no real way to prove any 30-some-year-old case with no video or DNA or witnesses (and even those would be accused of lying). But a lot of what she said about his character has been ignored.

Bottom line: he's a tainted pick, he's always gonna be a tainted pick, and the wisest thing would be to scrap him and find someone less contentious for the good of the country. Will they do that? Probably not. Trump doesn't give a good goddamn about anybody but his ever-shrinking base.

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10 Re: "The Cruelty is the Point." on 10/4/2018, 5:03 pm

2seaoat wrote:I believe you, which is why I'm not sure why you seem to see Ford's accusation as bullshit

I have made this crystal clear.  Her testimony was irrelevant.  All rules of evidence, probative value, and equal protection were thrown out the window when you go on a fishing expedition from almost forty years ago.  Do you understand as a Juvenile his file would have been sealed and expunged after five years, and that America has set the standard that we do not use juvenile records against adults.  Due process was denied the judge.  Judge Judy standards of evidence and relevance, and now the fbi has confirmed that memories do not confirm Dr Ford's accusations.  No, this was a horrible abuse of due process and now to hide behind the false issue of giving credence to victims.......that simply is embarrassing, and sadly there will be no constraint on Trump in the next two years.   Brilliant.....not.

Oh, BULLSHIT. It is the GOP that put on a shit show, not the Democrats. Please justify ramming this candidate through, not even half vetted, with huge segments of his career not available for scrutiny...Bush lawyers combing through his records and censoring whatever they didn't want to come out...then a doc dump at the 11th hour, which I heard at least one member of the committee say they didn't even get to see. And what happened to McConnell's rule about nominees during an election year, when Scalia passed in February, a full 9 months before the election. This whole process stinks to high heaven and is not about what happened 30 years ago. I'd like to know what Kavanaugh is doing NOW. I'd like to know how he spends his time and with whom. Does he have a bookie? Who paid off his debts? Why did he run up his credit card balances to buy season tickets for his buddies? Or was it for something else? Why did the ABA downgrade him in the past and then all of a sudden raise his rating? I'm sick of your side...every single damn one of them. All they know is dirty politics. Without that, there would have been no Citizens United v. FEC. And I don't doubt for one second that at least some of them took Russian money. We know Drumpf did...$30 million if I remember correctly. Where did it come from?

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11 Re: "The Cruelty is the Point." on 10/4/2018, 5:07 pm

I'm not saying he's automatically guilty.

really? Do you even understand the absurdity of the determination of guilt. You see the Democrats started with proposition this man was evil, therefore this was not about a confirmation hearing where the senate gives their advice and consent, but the determination of that conclusion and was it true or false. You see there was nothing that the Democrats could do to stop this confirmation, and they made a choice to sacrifice this jurist on the altar of arrogance and impotence.......a truly pathetic combination. May no nominee for office in the United States ever face such a historic low point in American due process.

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12 Re: "The Cruelty is the Point." on 10/4/2018, 5:11 pm

Oh, BULLSHIT. It is the GOP that put on a shit show

If you believe that conclusion, the mid terms are lost. Democrats looked weak, and Republicans looked strong again. May no male child of a forum member ever go through a witch hunt and burning at the stake because of allegations from forty years ago......irrelevant

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13 Re: "The Cruelty is the Point." on 10/4/2018, 5:20 pm

Why did the ABA downgrade him in the past and then all of a sudden raise his rating?

He was NEVER downgraded by the committee which makes the ratings.

Please turn your TV off.....take a deep breath, and stop the hissy fit. Ike knew the invasion of Europe could result in 10k casualties. He prepared his logistics and took his beating knowing that the loss would eventually bring victory.

If the Democrats when facing the same choice of Ike on D day, would announce to the world we will get an ouchee and we cannot invade Europe......the short term ill advised easy button.......except this time it was the lowest point in my adult life of a failure of American due process.

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14 Re: "The Cruelty is the Point." on 10/4/2018, 5:25 pm

2seaoat wrote:

really?  Do you even understand the absurdity of the determination of guilt.  

Do you even understand the absurdity of the determination of innocence in the face of three accusers and corroborating witnesses to Kavanaugh's behavior, plus his obnoxious yearbook material that certainly does nothing to clear him?

Fact is, nobody's ever likely to know if he's innocent or guilty, because it happened so long ago, and wasn't an incident that provided hard evidence in the first place. It was always he-said-she-said... but that doesn't mean he's not guilty.

And, also in this case, it's he-said, she-and-she-and-she-said. You're forgetting there are other witnesses... and people from the time do remember things that happened involving Ramirez.

You keep lecturing on how pathetic it is to determine that this case was true, but is it not equally pathetic to determine that it isn't, given the nature of things?

Honestly, you're guilty of exactly the same kind of thinking you're condemning in the Dems... you're just doing it for the other side. And you don't see it because you have this determined-to-stick-to-this-point thing going.

I assume you're having fun with it, though, which is the only reason I keep talking about it with you. Otherwise I'd write it off as knowing you're not gonna change your mind and shrug it off. Because I know at this point if somebody turns up twenty videotapes of Kavanaugh raping Girl Scout troops, you're still gonna defend him. I recognize dug-in-heels when I see 'em. But, I'm guessing that's part of the fun?

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15 Re: "The Cruelty is the Point." on 10/4/2018, 5:29 pm

2seaoat wrote:

He was NEVER downgraded by the committee which makes the ratings.

Wrong-o.

http://www.providencejournal.com/zz/news/20180929/aba-had-concerns-about-kavanaugh-12-years-ago



But in May 2006, as Republicans hoped to finally push Kavanaugh’s nomination across the finish line, the ABA downgraded its endorsement.

The group’s judicial investigator had recently interviewed dozens of lawyers, judges and others who had worked with Kavanaugh, the ABA announced at the time, and some of them raised red flags about “his professional experience and the question of his freedom from bias and open-mindedness.”

“One interviewee remained concerned about the nominee’s ability to be balanced and fair should he assume a federal judgeship,” the ABA committee chairman wrote to senators in 2006. “Another interviewee echoed essentially the same thoughts: ‘(He is) immovable and very stubborn and frustrating to deal with on some issues.’”

A particular judge had told the ABA that Kavanaugh had been “sanctimonious” during an oral argument in court. Several lawyers considered him inexperienced, and one said he “dissembled” in the courtroom.

The reviews weren’t all bad.

In the end, the ABA committee weighed Kavanaugh’s “solid reputation for integrity, intellectual capacity, and writing and analytical ability” against “concern over whether this nominee is so insulated that he will be unable to judge fairly in the future.” In a split vote, it downgraded the rating of the nominee to simply “qualified” - meaning he met the ABA’s standards to become a judge but was not necessarily an outstanding candidate.

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16 Re: "The Cruelty is the Point." on 10/4/2018, 5:40 pm

“The ABA president’s opinion doesn’t alter the fact that Judge Kavanaugh received a very well-qualified rating from the ABA standing committee, and the standing committee did not join this letter,” Grassley said, as Republicans prepared to vote.

I was talking about the ABA President's opinion countering the ABA standing committee. In regard to a judicial rating from 12 years ago. Not relevant to his current ratings. He may have in fact deserved those ratings in 2006, and he most certainly deserves the ratings he has received from the standing committee.

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17 Re: "The Cruelty is the Point." on 10/4/2018, 5:40 pm

zsomething wrote:Do you even understand the absurdity of the determination of innocence in the face of three accusers and corroborating witnesses to Kavanaugh's behavior, plus his obnoxious yearbook material that certainly does nothing to clear him?

Fact is, nobody's ever likely to know if he's innocent or guilty, because it happened so long ago, and wasn't an incident that provided hard evidence in the first place.  It was always he-said-she-said... but that doesn't mean he's not guilty.

And, also in this case, it's he-said, she-and-she-and-she-said.  You're forgetting there are other witnesses... and people from the time do remember things that happened involving Ramirez.

You keep lecturing on how pathetic it is to determine that this case was true, but is it not equally pathetic to determine that it isn't, given the nature of things?

Honestly, you're guilty of exactly the same kind of thinking you're condemning in the Dems... you're just doing it for the other side.   And you don't see it because you have this determined-to-stick-to-this-point thing going.

I assume you're having fun with it, though, which is the only reason I keep talking about it with you.   Otherwise I'd write it off as knowing you're not gonna change your mind and shrug it off.   Because I know at this point if somebody turns up twenty videotapes of Kavanaugh raping Girl Scout troops, you're still gonna defend him.  I recognize dug-in-heels when I see 'em.   But, I'm guessing that's part of the fun?

C'mon, give him a break, he's obviously suffering from some cognitive impairment. He doesn't even make sense anymore, his post are beginning to sound like the crazy ramblings of a dementia patient.

I wonder if we should get in touch with his family and let them know how bad he's getting so they can get an assessment and maybe develop a care plan. He might require an assisted living situation.

This might help: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK55462/

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18 Re: "The Cruelty is the Point." on 10/4/2018, 5:44 pm

if somebody turns up twenty videotapes of Kavanaugh raping Girl Scout troops,

Call CNN and then the democrats can put it into the record with the gang rape allegations........The mob is wrong on this one, the rule of law shall prevail as I predicted.

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19 Re: "The Cruelty is the Point." on 10/4/2018, 5:49 pm

See what I mean?

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20 Re: "The Cruelty is the Point." on 10/4/2018, 6:02 pm

Floridatexan wrote:
2seaoat wrote:I believe you, which is why I'm not sure why you seem to see Ford's accusation as bullshit

I have made this crystal clear.  Her testimony was irrelevant.  All rules of evidence, probative value, and equal protection were thrown out the window when you go on a fishing expedition from almost forty years ago.  Do you understand as a Juvenile his file would have been sealed and expunged after five years, and that America has set the standard that we do not use juvenile records against adults.  Due process was denied the judge.  Judge Judy standards of evidence and relevance, and now the fbi has confirmed that memories do not confirm Dr Ford's accusations.  No, this was a horrible abuse of due process and now to hide behind the false issue of giving credence to victims.......that simply is embarrassing, and sadly there will be no constraint on Trump in the next two years.   Brilliant.....not.


Oh, BULLSHIT.  It is the GOP that put on a shit show, not the Democrats.  Please justify ramming this candidate through, not even half vetted, with huge segments of his career not available for scrutiny...Bush lawyers combing through his records and censoring whatever they didn't want to come out...then a doc dump at the 11th hour, which I heard at least one member of the committee say they didn't even get to see.  And what happened to McConnell's rule about nominees during an election year, when Scalia passed in February, a full 9 months before the election.  This whole process stinks to high heaven and is not about what happened 30 years ago.  I'd like to know what Kavanaugh is doing NOW.  I'd like to know how he spends his time and with whom.  Does he have a bookie?  Who paid off his debts?  Why did he run up his credit card balances to buy season tickets for his buddies?  Or was it for something else?  Why did the ABA downgrade him in the past and then all of a sudden raise his rating?  I'm sick of your side...every single damn one of them.  All they know is dirty politics.  Without that, there would have been no Citizens United v. FEC.  And I don't doubt for one second that at least some of them took Russian money.  We know Drumpf did...$30 million if I remember correctly.  Where did it come from?  

cheers  cheers  cheers  cheers

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21 Re: "The Cruelty is the Point." on 10/4/2018, 6:19 pm

I'm sick of your side.

Then get off your collective lazy asses and vote. If you think having public hissy fits gets voters to the polls......think again......people are sick of government and politicians.......and most of all weakness and hypocrisy.

I had planned to take my dump truck and put two four foot by eight foot signs in the back of my dump truck which attacked our current Republican congressman who failed to respond to a letter and never confronted trump on farm tariffs. However, in the current environment, I could not vote for a Democrat. I will use the plywood for some concrete forms.

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22 Re: "The Cruelty is the Point." on 10/4/2018, 6:24 pm

2seaoat wrote: I'm sick of your side.

Then get off your collective lazy asses and vote.  If you think having public hissy fits gets voters to the polls......think again......people are sick of government and politicians.......and most of all weakness and hypocrisy.

I had planned to take my dump truck and put two four foot by eight foot signs in the back of my dump truck which attacked our current Republican congressman who failed to respond to a letter and never confronted trump on farm tariffs.  However, in the current environment, I could not vote for a Democrat.  I will use the plywood for some concrete forms.

I'm upset and will also vote. Those are not mutually exclusive conditions.

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23 Re: "The Cruelty is the Point." on 10/4/2018, 6:34 pm

“We all remember that Atticus Finch was a lawyer who did not believe that a mere accusation was synonymous with guilt,” Cornyn said. “We could learn from Atticus Finch now, during this time when there has been such a vicious and unrelenting attack on the integrity and good name of this nominee.”

Thank you for making the proper connection. This is the essence of American character and due process cannot be discarded because the mob failed at the polls to advance their agenda. This is no less evil than what happen to that man in a courtroom.........you are either a protector of equal protection, or you are not.......and do not let the lemming in front of you make that decision for you.

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24 Re: "The Cruelty is the Point." on 10/4/2018, 6:38 pm

zsomething wrote: ....

Whatever you think about Doctor Ford's claims, most reasonable people would agree that she's been through something that shouldn't be mocked.  


Well ... "mocked"?  No.  Of course she shouldn't be "mocked."

But questioned?  Yeah, sure she should be questioned.  I'd like to see what her reaction would be to an objective questioning of the veracity of her story.

I don't know if her story is true, partially true, or entirely fabricated (frankly, she wasn't questioned enough by anybody to really make any kind of  assessment of that.)   But I will say this ... she was putting on quite a bit of the actress I think as to how much the supposed trauma of this event affected her... at the time or today.

Now on the flip side of things ... I thought Judge Kavanaugh's drama queen testimony and demeanor was a total train wreck ... and he was putting on quite the "act" himself.   He's just not as good of an actor as his accuser is an actress.

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25 Re: "The Cruelty is the Point." on 10/4/2018, 7:52 pm

His wife has that long suffering terrorized by an out of control alky look about her. When he's SCOTUS our country will have that same look. First out with Trunp, then Kavanaugh.

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