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2seaoat wrote:and simply believe that if I strive to do good in my life, I shall have no fear of death and what may lie beyond.


But when you bring in predestination, the above is obviously not "simply" all that you believe.

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But when you bring in predestination, the above is obviously not "simply" all that you believe.


Well actually it is. I can get more complex and drill down on my beliefs, but they are in the end quite simple.

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2seaoat wrote:Will I be any less blessed when I am dead and you are alive?  Fearful children who fear that they have little control in their fate....I accept my fate and feel very very very blessed that although I lack control, all the objective evidence point to a unitary god, and not one person can prove the same wrong.  your fear cannot accept that I am happy despite the cards I have been dealt.  You equate peace of mind and acceptance of reality as not being rational.  I would tender that fear, anger, and resentment against those who possess a faith based belief system is based upon the hypocrisy of religion which Matthew 6 clearly recognizes and warns.  You do not need stupid people telling you about things you cannot confirm with your senses, and therefore you assume that faith correlates with stupid.  It does not, but there are stupid people who have in your life made you angry.  I am not angry in your lack of faith, or even people who stand up and spew nonsense in the name of god.......hypocrites all, and simply believe that if I strive to do good in my life, I shall have no fear of death and what may lie beyond.

No no no Oatie. I don't know where you're getting this fear, anger and resentment? I don't have faith because this world has proven to me and any other logical person this God of yours does not exist. All you have is some passage written thousands of years ago and a bunch of bullshit of holy spirits and devils and ridiculous graces you believe you get. You continually disregard the reality of life and the lack of grace except when it comes to yourself. You have none, zero, zilch evidence any unitary God exists except in your mind. In fact, the absence of any God is so profound it screams out at you. You believe because that's what you were indoctrinated into. In real life, intelligent people know better that it is nothing more than a state of mind.

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Here's the real question, Oatie. Tell us why you have the grace of God or blessings and other people don't? God predestined the Jewish people-his own- to bake in ovens? Seriously?

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2seaoat wrote:But when you bring in predestination, the above is obviously not "simply" all that you believe.


Well actually it is.  I can get more complex and drill down on my beliefs, but they are in the end quite simple.


Pffft.  Please.  It's either simple or it's complex, and I've seen more of the latter than the former in your (sometimes rather convoluted) attempts to explain.  

In any event, it doesn't matter what I or anyone else thinks about your personal beliefs, though at least a couple of us will probably continue speak up if/when your expression of them rankles in some way.  (You're used to that - lol.)

FWIW, though, I happen to heartily agree with living a good life and not worrying about "what may lie beyond" -- which I personally think is more than likely utter nothingness, exactly the same as before we (and our brain matter) existed.  Not existing except in the memory of surviving loved ones, after all, does not hurt the deceased one bit.

It's hard to accept the somewhat frustrating reality that the sentient human animal will probably never know, much less understand, the whys and wherefores of this most puzzling thing called life in a vast universe.   It's way, way, way beyond us -- even though, as Viking points out, we keep inventing ways to make that vast unknown emotionally manageable, whether or not there's a scintilla of reality or empirical evidence behind those methods.

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Who would conceptualize that the Grace of God is a zero sum game? A winner and a loser. We all have blessings at some point in our life, and sometimes it is as simple as still breathing in the morning.

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It's either simple or it's complex

like Dreams you have presented a zero sum game where the answer is one or the other. Would you admit that reaching over to start your car with a simple button is simple. Would you also agree that there are complexities which allow that simple act.

I personally think is more than likely utter nothingness

I have always found the concepts of heaven and hell to be self serving. However, nothingness in our cognitive capacities at this time associates negative connotations, almost like Dante's hell, I simply think there is no before or after but an infinite cycle which we cannot comprehend and impose our human projections over the unknown. I think there is so much more to learn.

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Would you admit that reaching over to start your car with a simple button is simple.  Would you also agree that there are complexities which allow that simple act.

Speaking of simple, and of "imposing human projections," would you not admit comparing a discussion about the huge questions of life and the universe to one about the workings of the finite automobile to be oversimplification in the highest?  Never mind; I know you rarely if ever "admit" to anything, Sea. Ha.

However, nothingness in our cognitive capacities at this time associates  negative connotations, almost like Dante's hell

Speak for yourself.   It doesn't "associate negative connotations" whatsoever for me -- maybe for those who feel the need to fill the void of the unknown with speculative myths, religions, and vaguely promising philosophies, but not for those of us who are -- what?  realistic enough? admittedly ignorant enough? maybe even brave enough?  -- to accept the strong likelihood that, in the absence of any empirical evidence to the contrary (especially given the deaths to date of millions of now utterly silent "souls"), there is no existence prior to nor after one's life on Earth.  

Look, nothingness never hurt me (because there almost certainly WAS no "me") during all the infinite time that passed before I developed a brain and was born, any more than it will hurt me when my brain switches off with my last breath.  No Inferno there at all, just the likely realities of life and death of the human animal, "blessed" with a sentient mind which in some ways is simultaneously its greatest "curse," since this animal alone knows that death is inevitable and is forced to confront that inescapability.  

Simple.  

I simply think there is no before or after but an infinite cycle which we cannot comprehend and impose our human projections over the unknown.  

But of course that's precisely what most human belief systems do in the face of the perhaps forever unknowable.  

Look, again, these are your beliefs and it matters not what I think about them.  If they give you peace, so be it.  

I think there is so much more to learn.

I agree, the difference being that I think we need a brain to learn with.  Additionally, again, I'm also able to accept the very difficult possibility that the human species may never, ever, be able to know or learn or grasp the true realities of the universe, before the Earth is eventually burnt to a cinder and not even our ashes survive.

YES, that seems harsh, especially for us humans who want to believe we matter in some eternal way, and that we will eventually figure it out if we don't already know now -- that we just HAVE to be able to eventually find a solution as we do to most every problem we confront in our limited human experience.  That's why religion and other similar belief systems that give hope of some type of eternal survival-- in all their myriad forms -- are such a very, very powerful force in our world.   I just personally happen to think they're most probably all hogwash -- dust in the wind.

But I don't know, and neither does any other single human being who ever lived, no matter how much they profess to the contrary.

This doesn't mean that I'm not deeply grateful every day for enjoying this gift, this "blessing," called life-- even if I don't have the slightest idea who or what -- if anyone or anything -- I can ever thank for it.  And yes, I realize the depth of my gratitude for each day likely pales in comparison to your own grasp of the preciousness.

But back to what you said -- I simply try to live a good life.  The rest --whether that's nothing or something -- will just have to take care of itself.

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2seaoat wrote:Who would conceptualize that the Grace of God is a zero sum game?  A winner and a loser.  We all have blessings at some point in our life, and sometimes it is as simple as still breathing in the morning.

You apparently believe the grace of God is a zero sum game doled out to certain folks. I, on the other hand believe in the randomness of life. Sometimes you win. Sometimes you lose. Still breathing in the morning is one of those things not having anything to do w/ God. People just don't like to believe we may not have any purpose to living other than we just do. Depressing? Depends on how good your life is. This is it. We gotta make room for the next batch. Good or bad.

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RealLindaL wrote:Would you admit that reaching over to start your car with a simple button is simple.  Would you also agree that there are complexities which allow that simple act.

Speaking of simple, and of "imposing human projections," would you not admit comparing a discussion about the huge questions of life and the universe to one about the workings of the finite automobile to be oversimplification in the highest?  Never mind; I know you rarely if ever "admit" to anything, Sea.  Ha.

However, nothingness in our cognitive capacities at this time associates  negative connotations, almost like Dante's hell

Speak for yourself.   It doesn't "associate negative connotations" whatsoever for me -- maybe for those who feel the need to fill the void of the unknown with speculative myths, religions, and vaguely promising philosophies, but not for those of us who are -- what?  realistic enough? admittedly ignorant enough? maybe even brave enough?  -- to accept the strong likelihood that, in the absence of any empirical evidence to the contrary (especially given the deaths to date of millions of now utterly silent "souls"), there is no existence prior to nor after one's life on Earth.  

Look, nothingness never hurt me (because there almost certainly WAS no "me") during all the infinite time that passed before I developed a brain and was born, any more than it will hurt me when my brain switches off with my last breath.  No Inferno there at all, just the likely realities of life and death of the human animal, "blessed" with a sentient mind which in some ways is simultaneously its greatest "curse," since this animal alone knows that death is inevitable and is forced to confront that inescapability.  

Simple.  

I simply think there is no before or after but an infinite cycle which we cannot comprehend and impose our human projections over the unknown.  

But of course that's precisely what most human belief systems do in the face of the perhaps forever unknowable.  

Look, again, these are your beliefs and it matters not what I think about them.  If they give you peace, so be it.  

I think there is so much more to learn.

I agree, the difference being that I think we need a brain to learn with.  Additionally, again, I'm also able to accept the very difficult possibility that the human species may never, ever, be able to know or learn or grasp the true realities of the universe, before the Earth is eventually burnt to a cinder and not even our ashes survive.

YES, that seems harsh, especially for us humans who want to believe we matter in some eternal way, and that we will eventually figure it out if we don't already know now -- that we just HAVE to be able to eventually find a solution as we do to most every problem we confront in our limited human experience.  That's why religion and other similar belief systems that give hope of some type of eternal survival-- in all their myriad forms -- are such a very, very powerful force in our world.   I just personally happen to think they're most probably all hogwash -- dust in the wind.

But I don't know, and neither does any other single human being who ever lived, no matter how much they profess to the contrary.

This doesn't mean that I'm not deeply grateful every day for enjoying this gift, this "blessing," called life-- even if I don't have the slightest idea who or what -- if anyone or anything -- I can ever thank for it.  And yes, I realize the depth of my gratitude for each day likely pales in comparison to your own grasp of the preciousness.

But back to what you said -- I simply try to live a good life.  The rest --whether that's nothing or something -- will just have to take care of itself.

Could be when we're burnt to an ash we'll start all over again. Just an endless cycle. As Oatie said... no beginning and no ending.

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BTW Oatie, you never produced all this evidence of a unifying God. We both know why.

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[quote="Vikingwoman"

Could be when we're burnt to an ash we'll start all over again. Just an endless cycle. As Oatie said... no beginning and no ending.[/quote]





Sounds about right.

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