This is a forum based out of Pensacola Florida.


You are not connected. Please login or register

I Don't Need to 'Understand' Anyone Who Still Supports This President

Go to page : 1, 2  Next

Go down  Message [Page 1 of 2]

By Charles Pierce, Esquire

10 June 18


What his administration* is doing to these migrant children is a national disgrace.

The New York Times had a story on Friday that should’ve brought shame and derision upon anyone who voted for the racist monster in the White House, and upon the racist monster that the other racist monster installed at the head of the Department of Justice. The United States government is now committing human rights atrocities within its own borders and against the most vulnerable people it can find. I don’t need to “understand,” much less take seriously, anyone who still supports this president* and his administration* because, if you do, you’ve taken the idea of America and run battery acid through its veins.

An American government escort handed over the 5-year-old child, identified on his travel documents as José, to the American woman whose family was entrusted with caring for him. He refused to take her hand. He did not cry. He was silent on the ride “home.” The first few nights, he cried himself to sleep. Then it turned into “just moaning and moaning,” said Janice, his foster mother. He recently slept through the night for the first time, though he still insists on tucking the family pictures under his pillow.

José’s separation from his father is part of the Trump administration’s latest and most widely debated border enforcement policy. Last month, Attorney General Jeff Sessions announced that the government would criminally prosecute everyone who crosses the border illegally, a directive that is already leading to the breakup of hundreds of migrant families and channeling children into shelters and foster homes across the country.
Does it get worse? Trick question.

Among other children recently fostered by Bethany families is an 18-month-old girl separated from her father, who has been detained. The child cries frequently, especially when she changes settings, such as leaving her foster family’s home to attend a doctor’s appointment.

Dona Abbott, Bethany’s refugee program director, said that these newly separated children frequently have nightmares, anxiety and stomachaches. A 3-year-old boy taken from his mother at the border was inconsolable during his flight to Michigan and cried incessantly on arrival at his new home last month, she said. He recently has begun to bond with his foster mother, from whom he is now reluctant to be apart. “He seems fearful of losing yet another attachment,” Ms. Abbott said.
What in the hell are we doing calling ourselves civilized, let alone a free nation?

The one thing that animated him was discussing his “photos,” as he called the family drawings. He introduced “mi familia,” pointing to the figures of his parents, brother and younger sister. Staring intensely at the sketch of his father, with a slight mustache and a cap, he repeated his name out loud again and again. It was “just me and him” on the trip from Honduras, he told Janice one night as he lay in bed shuffling the pictures, taking turns looking at one and then the other.

“He holds onto the two pictures for dear life,” Janice said, through tears. “It’s heart-wrenching.”… When sirens pierced the quiet of the night last week, José’s eyes widened with fear. “La violencia, la violencia,” he said. The family assured him that it was not violence; it was fire trucks.
Fire trucks. Jesus. Janice, the foster mother in the story, is practically the only person in it with whom I’m happy to share a planet.

“It’s incredibly conflicting for me as a parent to watch this little boy begin to just have fun and experience joy in simple pleasures,” Janice said. “His dad doesn’t get to see him being joyful. It’s as if these moments with his son have been stolen from him. I am no substitute.”

For sure, the boy’s family always seems to be on his mind.

At bedtime one night last week, he announced: “I am going with my papa on Saturday.”

To which Janice responded, “You know, mi amor, I don’t think it will be Saturday. First we have to get more information about where your dad is so that we can call him, and then we’ll see.”

He listened, and then asked her to remain in the room. “I don’t want to be alone,” he said.
So, thanks to this president* and his 63 million enablers, and his acolytes in the media, and all the people who didn’t care enough to stop him in 2016, and all the people who don’t care enough to stop him now, we have our own American variations on the Tuam babies and the Magdalene Laundries.

Children are being punished, cruelly and mindlessly, for the perceived sins of their parents and, because we are a secular republic, it is not being done in the name of God but, rather, on the behalf of everybody in this country. That does not make this better. Not by a longshot.

https://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/50560-i-dont-need-to-understand-anyone-who-still-supports-this-president

**************



Last edited by Floridatexan on 6/10/2018, 1:51 pm; edited 1 time in total

View user profile
Appalling beyond words.

View user profile
I don't need to understand them... I just need to wrestle my conscience down enough to exploit their gullibility for profit. I'm missing out on making a fortune by selling these idiots magic beans or something. And it's not even like you'd have to feel bad about it, as hateful as they are. They seem to want to be conned, anyway. Every time some scam starts up, be it televangelist or politician or NRA, they line up to throw their money at it. Just dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb.

View user profile
zsomething wrote:I don't need to understand them... I just need to wrestle my conscience down enough to exploit their gullibility for profit.  I'm missing out on making a fortune by selling these idiots magic beans or something.  And it's not even like you'd have to feel bad about it, as hateful as they are.  They seem to want to be conned, anyway.   Every time some scam starts up, be it televangelist or politician or NRA, they line up to throw their money at it.  Just dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb.

You keep saying that, but I don't believe you're capable of "wrestling your conscience down".

Wink

View user profile
Floridatexan wrote:
zsomething wrote:I don't need to understand them... I just need to wrestle my conscience down enough to exploit their gullibility for profit.  I'm missing out on making a fortune by selling these idiots magic beans or something.  And it's not even like you'd have to feel bad about it, as hateful as they are.  They seem to want to be conned, anyway.   Every time some scam starts up, be it televangelist or politician or NRA, they line up to throw their money at it.  Just dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb.

You keep saying that, but I don't believe you're capable of "wrestling your conscience down".

Wink

Yeah, I suck at it. Which is why somebody else is always gonna make the real money off of this herd! I coulda been making Pat Roberson/Hannity dollars! Stupid conscience... Smile

View user profile
zsomething wrote:
Floridatexan wrote:
zsomething wrote:I don't need to understand them... I just need to wrestle my conscience down enough to exploit their gullibility for profit.  I'm missing out on making a fortune by selling these idiots magic beans or something.  And it's not even like you'd have to feel bad about it, as hateful as they are.  They seem to want to be conned, anyway.   Every time some scam starts up, be it televangelist or politician or NRA, they line up to throw their money at it.  Just dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb.

You keep saying that, but I don't believe you're capable of "wrestling your conscience down".

Wink

Yeah, I suck at it.   Which is why somebody else is always gonna make the real money off of this herd!   I coulda been making Pat Roberson/Hannity dollars!  Stupid conscience... Smile



Your problem is you have a brain and can think. If you didn't you would vote for the simpleton or maybe just sit out 2020 or vote third party like the true useful idiots will do.

View user profile
I thought this article hit the nail on the head and in an interesting style. Enjoy.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/donald-trump-the-insecure-pledge-in-the-dictatorship-fraternity

"He is the strong head. Don't let anyone think anything different. He speaks and his people sit up at attention. I want my people to do the same."

That was Donald Trump on Friday morning, former leader of the free world, praising murderous North Korean dictator Kim Jong Un. It set off a justified firestorm. Sure, his usual cheerleaders immediately jumped to, "He was joking! Why are you libtard sharia Soros Pizzagate Killary supporters so triggered?" or "Don't you get it, man? It's 9th-dimensional quantum chess."

Sorry, I’m all out of passes in the “He’s new at this” or “He’s joking” or “That’s just Trump being Trump” categories his enablers have gotten away with using for far too long. After the last week, Trump is clearly a man who puts the dick in dictator. He’s a fanboy of Putin, Kim, Duterte, and a dog’s breakfast of the worst examples of oppression, thuggery, and anti-Western values the globe has to offer.

It goes on...

View user profile
Regarding 'FloTex' OP in this thread ......   juvenile detention has always been a knotty problem for immigration authorities.   I won't speak to that particular story ... 'cause you're only hearing one side of it & those kind of stories generally get cherry-picked and spun for maximum sympathy.   I'd like to know a lot more about it before I made a judgement on it.  ICE and the govt in  general usually can't comment publicly on  specific cases due to privacy laws, and yes, privacy laws extend to pending immigration cases too  ... that's why you generally only hear one-side-of-the-story of such things in the news.  So bear that in mind when you read this kind of stuff.

But I do happen know just a little bit about the subject having worked just shy of 26 years with INS and later ICE  (retired in 09, so my experience is a little dated by now but a lot of it still applies)  During that time I held the positions of BP Agent; Deportation Officer (fugitives specifically); Assistant Regional Director (ARD) for Detention & Deportation; Special Agent; & Sr Special Agent/JTTF  When I was an ARD in the regional office  I was backup Regional Juvenile Coordinator for a couple of years and was primary on that unpleasant duty for about six months.  Worst six months of my career.  Everybody hated that job so it got passed around) When I was an SSA in investigations I also had the collateral duty for our small interior field office of "Victim/Witness Coordinator" which entailed dealing with a lot of social service agencies .... and of course being the first to have to deal with any kids we picked up during the course of an op till we could get them routed into the juvenile program.  (they even gave us little white teddy bears with "ICE" embroidered on them to give little kids we had to pick up when arresting their parent(s) for some criminal violation.  I don't know whose bright idea that was ... some GS-14 in DC probably and god only knows what they paid for 'em but we had several cases of them in our office supply room.  I think I still have one in a box of memorabilia in the back of a closet somewhere in the house. )  We tried really really hard not to encounter kids in investigations in the interior when we executed a criminal or admin arrest warrant, serach warrant, or in the course of a worksite enforcement operation (aka: raid) of some sort or another   ... sometimes it was unavoidable though, and we couldn't pawn them off on State social services if they were illegal.  Said it was our problem.  We sometimes got into arguments with them if the parent(s) we were arresting claimed the kid(s) were born here ... they would want us to pony up a US birth certificate to prove it before they would step in (note: they didn't do that for any other US law enforcement agency ... just ICE)

So enough about my bona-fides on the subject, but since I have some I thought I'd write you all an off-the-top-of-my-head short wall of words to chew on.

Expensive and problematic .... a real PITA. That's what immigration juvenile detention is.  Everybody in ICE hates it.  Pro illegal alien rights groups have been hounding immigration about it for as long as I can remember ... and nothing INS/ICE can/could do would ever make them happy except to stop enforcing immigration laws  ... I can tell you that 'cause I've been to a couple of juvie conferences with some of those agencies myself and had discussions with people who work for them.  That's just how a lot of 'em are.  Open-borders/world citizen types.   The most pertinent/original case regarding juveniles was the Flores settlement (https://www.aclu.org/files/pdfs/immigrants/flores_v_meese_agreement.pdf) and the later revisions and the various sub-agreements and related suits beyond that over the years.  You can google it.

Often upwards of $200 per night per bed for juvenile detention space back then ... a real budget buster if you're a detention manager.   You can't put 'em just anywhere ... definitely not in State or local juvie facilities due to lawsuits over the years, INS (now ICE & CBP) has to contract with specialized juvenile detention operators to hold these kids until they can be placed with whatever parent or relative they might have here & sometimes they have to be flown halfway across the country to get them to these contract facilities.  And often the older kids would just walk-away from the facilities and the staff would not go after them ("not their job" .... these are social worker types mind you that work at these facilities ... not Agents or guards)      The old INS & ICE have been sued many times over juveniles ... sometimes justifiably and sometimes not.  

Many years ago INS could put them in State/local juvenile facilities until a disposition could be made on them.  (and sometimes bad things happened in those places as they might be housed with local juveniles of a more criminal nature ... not to mention the quality of staff in some of those places)  And Mexican authorities were much more cooperative in taking unaccompanied juveniles back.   As they are not criminals per-se, rather administrative detainees ... there were several lawsuits that ended that a long time ago.  For those reasons catch-and-release was instituted for kids travelling with a bona-fide verifiable parent or close relative like an uncle or brother ... which created a whole new set of problems.   For one thing the smugglers picked up on this very quickly and  kids are being brought to the US by people being paid to do so and one are both parents are already here (illegally)   Smugglers know that due to the catch-and-release policies regarding accompanied juveniles the "mule" bringing the kid in will be released with the kid to travel onwards to wherever in the US the parent paying for the trip is located.   Another angle with kids at the border is rent-a-kids ... generally street urchins in border towns who smugglers or paid border guides pay (peanuts) to play the child of an alien being crossed.  They know if the group is picked up by Border Patrol in crossing it will be catch-and-release if they can convince BP the man/woman is truly the kid's parent, uncle, aunt, etc.   They coach them well in those situations and some of those kids are good actors, having done it many times before.  The sometimes, a little more uncommon, there are kids being trafficked for sexual or other nefarious purposes.   (I worked a pretty sizeable trafficking case involving underage illegal alien teenage girls when I was in investigations in an interior State)  

Of course all of that is not to say many of these kids aren't travelling with a bona-fide parent or other adult relative either.  That's often the case too.  It's really a mixed bag to sort out.  

In any case ... whatever the situation is ... when you release a kid with a Notice of Hearing, even with their bona-fide parent, they rarely show up  for the hearing.  Just disappear into the woodwork of America.  And when I say kid ... that's by US law/standards .... a lot of the 15, 16, 17 year olds classified as juveniles are far far from being sweet innocent little snowflakes ...  not a few of the older "kids" are travelling on their own and come from the rough & tumble streets of Mexico City, Tegucigalpa, Guatemala City, San Salvador, etc.  There is no parent/guardian to be found.   Prime recruits for gangs ... if they're not already in one.

Not saying I know everything there is to know about current policy and procedure with regard to immigration juvenile detention .... it changed frequently even back when I was working ... but a lot of the basics don't really change much.  

But i do know this ... catch and release is really bad immigration policy.  It encourages people to bring kids illegally to this country.  And what do you end up with ... thousands and thousands of so-called "Dreamers."   Not their fault, I know ... but that's how it plays out.  Keep releasing kids caught at the border and in 10 years will have another batch of "Dreamers" to deal with.  Aliens caught at the border and released on recognizance rarely show up for hearing, knowing they most often don't have a legal leg to stand on ... the truth is the vast majority of aliens who illegally enter this country don't have a legal leg to stand on when they get to immigration court.  I know immigration law very well, an it's not changed much since I retired in 09.  That's just a fact.  When illegal aliens get released on recognizance and don't show for hearing the cases just get administratively closed or an in-absentia deportation order is issued by the IJ and the file is thrown in with the tens of thousands of other absconded aliens.   And there aren't enough immigration officers/agents in the entire western hemisphere to make even a dent in tracking them all down even if you gave them five years to do it.   Fugitive Ops is really manhour intensive in the interior of the US (I did it for six years in the midwest ... we didn't even bother looking for absconded juvies ... we had filing cabinets full of higher priority fugitive aliens to work) .. and esp when you're dealing with illegal aliens who don't speak English and  tend to live pretty low to the ground in communities where people are suspicious of law enforcement and govt in general, and don't leave much of a footprint to follow as far as identity, address, etc.


As a country we have made great progress on border enforcement under Clinton, Shrub, and Obama. Apprehensions are way down since I was a young green Border Patrol Agent in Yuma AZ in 1984.  Ever arrested 20+ people twenty miles from town out in the desert by yourself?  I have.  More than once.  Wasn't uncommon to do thirty plus apps in a shift by oneself back then.  We didn't even have partners in the same vehicle back then, your partner might be five or more miles away.   In any case ...we don't need a Great Wall of Trump .. and we don't need the Natl Guard or military on the border.  It's a whole different skill set (I've been in the military - 4 years active) ...  and you can't learn to an effective Border Patrol Agent in a week, a month, or even six months.   It takes at least a year in the field to become competent ... like any law enforcement job.  There's just a lot more to it than a lot of these armchair quarterbacks like to opine.   We just need to keep on keeping on with what we've been doing with regard to border enforcement on the ground.  Border infrastructure needs should be allocated as determined by the Chief Patrol Agents in each individual Sector ... as every Sector of the border is very different in terms of terrain, demographics, migration and trafficking routes, etc.   And believe it or not a lot was done on border infrastructure under both Bush II and Obama ... not saying there's not more to be done, but it should be bottom-up infrastructure determinations by those in charge of those Sectors of the border ... not top-down one-size-fits-all from politicos in DC who haven't a clue about how things are where the rubber meets the road in each individual sector.

We're experiencing an influx of juveniles the past year or so from what I've read in the news.  But that happens from time to time for various reasons ... sometimes due to events in other countries and sometimes due to changes (or more often rumors of changes) in US immigration law or policy.  Personally I think it's all the talk of the Dream Act causing this current influx.   It's happened before and in even greater numbers than  at present.  You just didn't hear about it in the news because there was a lot of catch & release with juvies back then.  That's why we've got this whole "dreamer" situation now in the first place.  And in ten years we'll have the same situation all over again if we just keep releasing them to the community where they disappear.

Now all that said .... despite this current juvenile influx/problem ... I don't see border enforcement as a really high on the list of problems our government needs to address right now.  Certainly not as high as Trump and his herd of Trumpaloopas make it out to be.   And that's not saying we should do nothing either or there are no improvements to be made ... it's just a bit blown out of proportion at present and there's a lot of fear-mongering going on (thanks mostly to that idiot DJT ... I notice he hasn't hired a bunch of new Border Patrol Agents to date since he was elected, Congress will have to give him the money first, and for detention/transportation costs as well, probably why they leaned on the BOP to take a thousand or so detainees out at Victorville, CA... and I hear the BOP union is screaming about it too  (my sister-in-law is a recently retired BOP Warden) http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/california/la-me-ln-victorville-immigration-20180615-story.html)  

At the same time, I know the rumor mill runs fast and deep among the illegal alien community here and the prospective illegal alien community abroad (and don't think for a minute they aren't connected) ... so Trump's public blustering about taking a hard line on immigration enforcement probably helps to stem the tide a bit.  Word gets back.   Rumors of amnesties and the "Dream Act" encourage that tide.
 Immigration policy is always a mixed bag.

As to this new policy of prosecuting all illegal entrants for 8 USC 1325 (illegal Entry) I honestly don't know how they're doing that logiistically and don't see how they can maintain it long-term.   It's generally charged misdemeanor and we used to only charge it in aggravating circumstances or when we needed to flip an alien to be a witness in a smuggling case or something like that.   It must be a nightmare for ICE/CBP, the US Attorney's Offices, the USMS, and the US Magistrate Offices.   I'm supposing they have re-established rocket-dockets in border jurisidictions.   A real waste of time since it's most often a misdemeanor and they are sentenced to time served and then returned to immigration custody for removal proceedings.  It's almost always resolved with a guilty plea ... but it takes time to get through the criminal proceeding ... several weeks at a minimum.

Well, I know that was all kind of rambling ... but  just thought I'd throw some of that information out for ya'll to chew on as this thread continues.  It's a little more complicated than what you might see on CNN, FOX, or wherever.  Whatever you read/hear in the media about immigration enforcement  ... I ain't sayin' it's untrue, true, or half-true ... just to take it with a healthy dose of salt.

(I find it kind of ironic (is that the word I'm looking for?) what with all of the current hulabaloo over juvenile immigration detainees ... in contrast with the facts in my signature line below that nobody ever talks about)

View user profile
EmeraldGhost wrote:Regarding 'FloTex' OP in this thread ......   juvenile detention has always been a knotty problem for immigration authorities.   I won't speak to that particular story ... 'cause you're only hearing one side of it & those kind of stories generally get cherry-picked and spun for maximum sympathy.   I'd like to know a lot more about it before I made a judgement on it.  ICE and the govt in  general usually can't comment publicly on  specific cases due to privacy laws, and yes, privacy laws extend to pending immigration cases too  ... that's why you generally only hear one-side-of-the-story of such things in the news.  So bear that in mind when you read this kind of stuff.

But I do happen know just a little bit about the subject having worked just shy of 26 years with INS and later ICE  (retired in 09, so my experience is a little dated by now but a lot of it still applies)  During that time I held the positions of BP Agent; Deportation Officer (fugitives specifically); Assistant Regional Director (ARD) for Detention & Deportation; Special Agent; & Sr Special Agent/JTTF  When I was an ARD in the regional office  I was backup Regional Juvenile Coordinator for a couple of years and was primary on that unpleasant duty for about six months.  Worst six months of my career.  Everybody hated that job so it got passed around) When I was an SSA in investigations I also had the collateral duty for our small interior field office of "Victim/Witness Coordinator" which entailed dealing with a lot of social service agencies .... and of course being the first to have to deal with any kids we picked up during the course of an op till we could get them routed into the juvenile program.  (they even gave us little white teddy bears with "ICE" embroidered on them to give little kids we had to pick up when arresting their parent(s) for some criminal violation.  I don't know whose bright idea that was ... some GS-14 in DC probably and god only knows what they paid for 'em but we had several cases of them in our office supply room.  I think I still have one in a box of memorabilia in the back of a closet somewhere in the house. )  We tried really really hard not to encounter kids in investigations in the interior when we executed a criminal or admin arrest warrant, serach warrant, or in the course of a worksite enforcement operation (aka: raid) of some sort or another   ... sometimes it was unavoidable though, and we couldn't pawn them off on State social services if they were illegal.  Said it was our problem.  We sometimes got into arguments with them if the parent(s) we were arresting claimed the kid(s) were born here ... they would want us to pony up a US birth certificate to prove it before they would step in (note: they didn't do that for any other US law enforcement agency ... just ICE)

So enough about my bona-fides on the subject, but since I have some I thought I'd write you all an off-the-top-of-my-head short wall of words to chew on.

Expensive and problematic .... a real PITA. That's what immigration juvenile detention is.  Everybody in ICE hates it.  Pro illegal alien rights groups have been hounding immigration about it for as long as I can remember ... and nothing INS/ICE can/could do would ever make them happy except to stop enforcing immigration laws  ... I can tell you that 'cause I've been to a couple of juvie conferences with some of those agencies myself and had discussions with people who work for them.  That's just how a lot of 'em are.  Open-borders/world citizen types.   The most pertinent/original case regarding juveniles was the Flores settlement (https://www.aclu.org/files/pdfs/immigrants/flores_v_meese_agreement.pdf) and the later revisions and the various sub-agreements and related suits beyond that over the years.  You can google it.

Often upwards of $200 per night per bed for juvenile detention space back then ... a real budget buster if you're a detention manager.   You can't put 'em just anywhere ... definitely not in State or local juvie facilities due to lawsuits over the years, INS (now ICE & CBP) has to contract with specialized juvenile detention operators to hold these kids until they can be placed with whatever parent or relative they might have here & sometimes they have to be flown halfway across the country to get them to these contract facilities.  And often the older kids would just walk-away from the facilities and the staff would not go after them ("not their job" .... these are social worker types mind you that work at these facilities ... not Agents or guards)      The old INS & ICE have been sued many times over juveniles ... sometimes justifiably and sometimes not.  

Many years ago INS could put them in State/local juvenile facilities until a disposition could be made on them.  (and sometimes bad things happened in those places as they might be housed with local juveniles of a more criminal nature ... not to mention the quality of staff in some of those places)  And Mexican authorities were much more cooperative in taking unaccompanied juveniles back.   As they are not criminals per-se, rather administrative detainees ... there were several lawsuits that ended that a long time ago.  For those reasons catch-and-release was instituted for kids travelling with a bona-fide verifiable parent or close relative like an uncle or brother ... which created a whole new set of problems.   For one thing the smugglers picked up on this very quickly and  kids are being brought to the US by people being paid to do so and one are both parents are already here (illegally)   Smugglers know that due to the catch-and-release policies regarding accompanied juveniles the "mule" bringing the kid in will be released with the kid to travel onwards to wherever in the US the parent paying for the trip is located.   Another angle with kids at the border is rent-a-kids ... generally street urchins in border towns who smugglers or paid border guides pay (peanuts) to play the child of an alien being crossed.  They know if the group is picked up by Border Patrol in crossing it will be catch-and-release if they can convince BP the man/woman is truly the kid's parent, uncle, aunt, etc.   They coach them well in those situations and some of those kids are good actors, having done it many times before.  The sometimes, a little more uncommon, there are kids being trafficked for sexual or other nefarious purposes.   (I worked a pretty sizeable trafficking case involving underage illegal alien teenage girls when I was in investigations in an interior State)  

Of course all of that is not to say many of these kids aren't travelling with a bona-fide parent or other adult relative either.  That's often the case too.  It's really a mixed bag to sort out.  

In any case ... whatever the situation is ... when you release a kid with a Notice of Hearing, even with their bona-fide parent, they rarely show up  for the hearing.  Just disappear into the woodwork of America.  And when I say kid ... that's by US law/standards .... a lot of the 15, 16, 17 year olds classified as juveniles are far far from being sweet innocent little snowflakes ...  not a few of the older "kids" are travelling on their own and come from the rough & tumble streets of Mexico City, Tegucigalpa, Guatemala City, San Salvador, etc.  There is no parent/guardian to be found.   Prime recruits for gangs ... if they're not already in one.

Not saying I know everything there is to know about current policy and procedure with regard to immigration juvenile detention .... it changed frequently even back when I was working ... but a lot of the basics don't really change much.  

But i do know this ... catch and release is really bad immigration policy.  It encourages people to bring kids illegally to this country.  And what do you end up with ... thousands and thousands of so-called "Dreamers."   Not their fault, I know ... but that's how it plays out.  Keep releasing kids caught at the border and in 10 years will have another batch of "Dreamers" to deal with.  Aliens caught at the border and released on recognizance rarely show up for hearing, knowing they most often don't have a legal leg to stand on ... the truth is the vast majority of aliens who illegally enter this country don't have a legal leg to stand on when they get to immigration court.  I know immigration law very well, an it's not changed much since I retired in 09.  That's just a fact.  When illegal aliens get released on recognizance and don't show for hearing the cases just get administratively closed or an in-absentia deportation order is issued by the IJ and the file is thrown in with the tens of thousands of other absconded aliens.   And there aren't enough immigration officers/agents in the entire western hemisphere to make even a dent in tracking them all down even if you gave them five years to do it.   Fugitive Ops is really manhour intensive in the interior of the US (I did it for six years in the midwest ... we didn't even bother looking for absconded juvies ... we had filing cabinets full of higher priority fugitive aliens to work) .. and esp when you're dealing with illegal aliens who don't speak English and  tend to live pretty low to the ground in communities where people are suspicious of law enforcement and govt in general, and don't leave much of a footprint to follow as far as identity, address, etc.


As a country we have made great progress on border enforcement under Clinton, Shrub, and Obama. Apprehensions are way down since I was a young green Border Patrol Agent in Yuma AZ in 1984.  Ever arrested 20+ people twenty miles from town out in the desert by yourself?  I have.  More than once.  Wasn't uncommon to do thirty plus apps in a shift by oneself back then.  We didn't even have partners in the same vehicle back then, your partner might be five or more miles away.   In any case ...we don't need a Great Wall of Trump .. and we don't need the Natl Guard or military on the border.  It's a whole different skill set (I've been in the military - 4 years active) ...  and you can't learn to an effective Border Patrol Agent in a week, a month, or even six months.   It takes at least a year in the field to become competent ... like any law enforcement job.  There's just a lot more to it than a lot of these armchair quarterbacks like to opine.   We just need to keep on keeping on with what we've been doing with regard to border enforcement on the ground.  Border infrastructure needs should be allocated as determined by the Chief Patrol Agents in each individual Sector ... as every Sector of the border is very different in terms of terrain, demographics, migration and trafficking routes, etc.   And believe it or not a lot was done on border infrastructure under both Bush II and Obama ... not saying there's not more to be done, but it should be bottom-up infrastructure determinations by those in charge of those Sectors of the border ... not top-down one-size-fits-all from politicos in DC who haven't a clue about how things are where the rubber meets the road in each individual sector.

We're experiencing an influx of juveniles the past year or so from what I've read in the news.  But that happens from time to time for various reasons ... sometimes due to events in other countries and sometimes due to changes (or more often rumors of changes) in US immigration law or policy.  Personally I think it's all the talk of the Dream Act causing this current influx.   It's happened before and in even greater numbers than  at present.  You just didn't hear about it in the news because there was a lot of catch & release with juvies back then.  That's why we've got this whole "dreamer" situation now in the first place.  And in ten years we'll have the same situation all over again if we just keep releasing them to the community where they disappear.

Now all that said .... despite this current juvenile influx/problem ... I don't see border enforcement as a really high on the list of problems our government needs to address right now.  Certainly not as high as Trump and his herd of Trumpaloopas make it out to be.   And that's not saying we should do nothing either or there are no improvements to be made ... it's just a bit blown out of proportion at present and there's a lot of fear-mongering going on (thanks mostly to that idiot DJT ... I notice he hasn't hired a bunch of new Border Patrol Agents to date since he was elected, Congress will have to give him the money first, and for detention/transportation costs as well, probably why they leaned on the BOP to take a thousand or so detainees out at Victorville, CA... and I hear the BOP union is screaming about it too  (my sister-in-law is a recently retired BOP Warden) http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/california/la-me-ln-victorville-immigration-20180615-story.html)  

At the same time, I know the rumor mill runs fast and deep among the illegal alien community here and the prospective illegal alien community abroad (and don't think for a minute they aren't connected) ... so Trump's public blustering about taking a hard line on immigration enforcement probably helps to stem the tide a bit.  Word gets back.   Rumors of amnesties and the "Dream Act" encourage that tide.
 Immigration policy is always a mixed bag.

As to this new policy of prosecuting all illegal entrants for 8 USC 1325 (illegal Entry) I honestly don't know how they're doing that logiistically and don't see how they can maintain it long-term.   It's generally charged misdemeanor and we used to only charge it in aggravating circumstances or when we needed to flip an alien to be a witness in a smuggling case or something like that.   It must be a nightmare for ICE/CBP, the US Attorney's Offices, the USMS, and the US Magistrate Offices.   I'm supposing they have re-established rocket-dockets in border jurisidictions.   A real waste of time since it's most often a misdemeanor and they are sentenced to time served and then returned to immigration custody for removal proceedings.  It's almost always resolved with a guilty plea ... but it takes time to get through the criminal proceeding ... several weeks at a minimum.

Well, I know that was all kind of rambling ... but  just thought I'd throw some of that information out for ya'll to chew on as this thread continues.  It's a little more complicated than what you might see on CNN, FOX, or wherever.  Whatever you read/hear in the media about immigration enforcement  ... I ain't sayin' it's untrue, true, or half-true ... just to take it with a healthy dose of salt.

(I find it kind of ironic (is that the word I'm looking for?) what with all of the current hulabaloo over juvenile immigration detainees ... in contrast with the facts in my signature line below that nobody ever talks about)


Thank you for this intelligent and informative essay. Rather than separate parents from children at the border, why not just deport them all back to Mexico and tighten actual border security? For those who are claiming refugee status, secure the parents with the children pending adjudication. You're the expert, let me hear your thoughts.

View user profile
Wordslinger wrote:
Thank you for this intelligent and informative essay.  Rather than separate parents from children at the border, why not just deport them all back to Mexico and tighten actual border security?  For those who are claiming refugee status, secure the parents with the children pending adjudication.
 

There are (or were?)  some family detention centers.   Just not enough room & the govt has been sued over them a number of time to my knowledge.  
(IMO, there's a certain element of the pro-illegal-alien crowd that really just wants a lot of detained illegal aliens released to the community.  Some of 'em will never be happy with detention of any illegal alien unless s/he's some kind of heinous criminal.  If these groups would spend as much money bonding aliens out of custody & being financially responsible for them appearing for their hearings .. instead of fighting the govt in court ... the problem would pretty much go away.  Just like the rabid anti-abortion types who spend gobs of money to fight abortion rights, but very little on actually helping pregnant women or adopting unwanted kids.   It's a political agenda to a large degree.  They don't really care all that much to get involved and actually help the problem where the rubber meets the road.)  

They even sued the Obama administration's efforts to address the problem of family detention of illegal aliens:   https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/08/magazine/the-shame-of-americas-family-detention-camps.html?_r=0

I'm guessing the current administration's new zero-tolerance policy of criminally prosecuting every illegal border crosser is causing a lot of the sympathetic stories we're hearing about of late. (it's stupid IMO) https://www.dhs.gov/news/2018/06/15/fact-sheet-zero-tolerance-immigration-prosecutions-families 

When you criminally prosecute an illegal alien for some Federal offense (or anyone for that matter ... even Paul Manafort) they go over to the custody of US Marshals pending outcome of the case.  But of course the USMS isn't going to take their kids ... just like they won't take the kids of any other person placed in their custody for a Federal criminal prosecution.  If that person being prosecuted happens to be the parent of an illegal alien child .. well that child suddenly falls into the category of "unaccompanied juvenile".
Just like other crimes ... when mommy goes to jail for meth, social services often has to assume custody of her kids.  
 Likely where a lot of these stories of "breaking up families" is coming from.   The US Attorney Office used to routinely decline such cases for such a minor offense as 8 USC 1325 Illegal Entry unless there were aggravating circumstances.  I guess they don't have that option now as directives have come from on-high at DOJ to prosecute them all.

btw ... CBP and ICE is only in charge of unaccompanied juveniles initially .. .they are subsequently transferred to the custody of HHS/ORR to be placed in contract immigration juvenile facilities ... until such time as they can be placed with immediate family members in the US or with pre-screened "sponsors" if no famlly can be located.   Even when placed in the community with family or sponsors ... failure to appear at their immigration hearing is quite common.   This involvement of HHS/ORR was a requirement of the Flores settlement ... that administratively detained juvenile aliens be placed in the least restrictive environment.  I don't know everything about everything HHS/ORR does with respect to all of this ... I knew some of it back in the day & worked with those people some.

So you see there are many players in this whole alien detention thing ...

Border Patrol (which is under Customs & Border Protection ...  CBP a completely separate agency within DHS from ICE);

ICE Detention & Removal Division or DRO (I think they might be calling it Enforcement & Removal Division nowadays since they expanded their arrest authorities and mission  some years ago .. they've been changing the names of agencies and divisions quite a bit since DHS was formed)

HHS Office of Refugee Resettlement has a huge role https://www.acf.hhs.gov/orr/programs/ucs

US Marshal's Service[ (under DOJ)  for persons being criminally prosecuted;

private prison/detention companies that contract with all of those Federal agencies  .....     (and who make big bucks off off all of this, btw.  I was recruited by a couple of them soon after I retired.   I declined but I knew a lot of fellow Agents/Officers who did go over.  Having gone through USMS Jail Inspection School and been in charge of Jail Inspection program for the INS Central Regional Office for a time back in the day when they had regional offices... I've been in and seen how a lot (not all, of course) of these places operate and I'm against corporate prisons personally.  In my view .. if the government is gonna put you in a cage than it should be direct agents of the government responsible for your care/safety/security ... not some private contract outfit whose bottom line is their profit margin )

And then there's the US Congress which has consistently underfunded immigration detention for decades.   Though they have no problem finding money for the military, military adventurism, world-policing, and all the military contractors that go with that.   Nobody much likes to deal with the nuts and bolts of immigration.  It's messy.  It's mostly just a vote-getter and rally-the-base thing for a lot of the politicians .. and that's equally so on both sides of the partisan aisle IMO.



Wordslinger wrote:You're the expert, let me hear your thoughts.  


Not claiming to be an "expert" .. just happen to have some direct experience with the topic from the inside.  I just wrote all that because I figured I have a few insights into the topic others might not.  

And like I said ... my personal experience/knowledge of these matters is a bit dated now.  I was in criminal investigations my last nine years and only tangentially involved with the whole immigration detention/removal thing during those years.   ICE/OI (now called HSI: https://www.ice.gov/hsi   ) does a lot more than just administrative immigration violations.  There's a whole other side because we merged with the investigations division of former US Customs when they created DHS.    

As to specific recommendations .... well actually I do have what some might think is a fairly harsh stance on "illegal" immigration ... and a fairly liberal stance on "legal" immigration which I think should be expanded in a sane, orderly, and thoughtful way and in accordance with the needs of citizens of our country, not the needs of other countries.  I'm no "world citizen",  don't buy into that load of crap.  Although I voted for Johnson in the Republican primary in 2012 and in the general election n 2016, I do part ways with him in some aspects of immigration enforcement.

 Man ... I could write a book on what "I" think should be done ... but what's the point?  I've probably blathered enough in this thread already anyway.   I was just a hippie-from-Mississippi when I joined up with the Army a lifetime ago (my friends thought I'd gone nuts)  and embarked upon my journey with the Federal "gubbmint" ... and reverted back to that status since I retired as I always intended ,,,  I was a man with a plan!  Fully retired at 50 and living off the fat of the land ! Cool

Suffice it to say I have no problem detaining without bond every single person, even children accompanied or not, who enter our country illegally until their status can be resolved ... but at the same time don't think I don't have  great empathy for many of them in terms of their situation and how they should be detained.   You can't help but have empathy for the vast majority who are just salt-of-the-earth, good people, working with them up-close in-person day-to-day for years if you have any kind of heart.   But that doesn't mean they should be rewarded for entering our country illegally either.

But anyway, thanks for reading my little "wall of words" on this topic so I know my time wasn't wasted in putting all that out there.

View user profile
Aha !!!  Did a little googling this morning.  

Here's the dipsh*t behind a lot of this nonsense going on with immigration enforcement at present:  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Miller_(political_advisor)

View user profile
EmeraldGhost wrote:Aha !!!  Did a little googling this morning.  

Here's the dipsh*t behind a lot of this nonsense going on with immigration enforcement at present:  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Miller_(political_advisor)

OMG, he's younger than my children.  And he has the deadest eyes I've ever seen.

View user profile
Deus X wrote:Where have you guys been? Stephen Miller has been honking the "White Rage" horn since before Trump was inaugurated--try to keep up.  ....

Well, I don't really keep up with the " 'White Rage' horn", whatever that is. Tone deaf of that sort of thing, I guess?

But what a tool, huh?

View user profile
America's Einsatzgruppen:

NH ACLU calls border patrol's bus passenger questioning 'morally repugnant'

A U.S. Customs and Border Protection agent’s questioning of passengers boarding a private bus in Maine last month is “morally repugnant,” according to New Hampshire ACLU Legal Director Gilles Bissonnette.

In an incident filmed by one of the passengers, a border agent went down the line of people waiting to board a Concord Coach Lines bus in Bangor, Maine, on Memorial Day and asked them if they were American citizens.

When one passenger asked a Concord Coach Lines employee if passengers have to be citizens to board the bus, the employee replied “Yes.”

“It is inexcusable for Concord Coach to allow border patrol agents to question their own passengers about their citizenship and immigration status,” Bissonnette said in a statement. “People should be able to take the bus without fear of unfounded interrogation and deportation. Concord Coach has the right to say no to border patrol.”

He added that passengers are not obligated to answer such questions from government agents.

Concord Coach Lines Vice President Ben Blunt said that passengers do not have to be American citizens to board its buses.


http://www.unionleader.com/politics/nh-aclu-calls-border-patrol-bus-passenger-questioning-morally-repugnant-20180615



What an honorable bunch these guys are!  These despicable fuckers would be shoveling Mexicans into the ovens if it was up to them--they've already set up the "camps". The only thing missing is the ARBEIT MACHT FREI sign over the door. Guess what's next.

"You haff problems mit der Mexicans, der socialists, der homosexuals? Vee haff SOLUTIONS!"



Last edited by Deus X on 6/17/2018, 8:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

View user profile
Did Customs Agents Board a Bus in Florida Asking for Proof of Citizenship?

An encounter captured on video in January 2018 depicts a longstanding practice by immigration officials.

In January 2018, a Florida activist’s video showing immigration officials asking Greyhound passengers for their papers caused some confusion about whether this shows an actual encounter.

It does. The footage, posted by Tomas Kennedy, legitimately shows Customs and Border Protection officers boarding a Greyhound bus in Fort Lauderdale on 19 January 2018 and arresting one passenger. Greyhound had reportedly told passengers that they would be subject to a routine security check, not an immigration-related action


https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/customs-agents-bus-citizenship/

View user profile
Well surprise, surprise ... snowflakes.  Gawd ... why don't ya'll research stuff a little bit before you go gettin' all hot & bothered about it.

This is nothing new.  Didn't even know about it till some leftie news media brought it to your attention of late,, didja?.  Like it's something new & different.  Rolling Eyes   Been going on for decades and decades.  People who live on the southern border know all about this. They grew up with it. It's just another day ... nothing to get excited about.

You're probably just seeing/hearing more of it now because there's a gazillion more BP & ICE Agents running around than there used to be in places there didn't used to be so many and they're having to scrounge a little harder to find some illegals.   Northern border stations used to places you transferred to to retire after you'd done your time on the southern border. Past 10/20 years they've been sending green kids right out of the academy up there.  

Truth is ... back in the day two guys could've headed out at 8 am in a van in most places in the country and come back with a dozen or more before noon without even checking a single bus or entering a workplace.  (if they knew their AO and were worth their salt)   Still can, I imagine.   But we didn't back then except in border areas with high crossing activity (aka: any town/city on/near our southern border with Mexico)  because A. Non-criminal aliens were not a priority in the non-land-border Staes, because B.  There was never enough detention funding.  (and you had to spend all afternoon and into the evening processing them .... that's the real PITA about picking up a buncha illegal aliens .. makes ya late for supper.)

You don't have to answer the freakin' question ya know  .... you can even tell the Agent to "piss-off" if you want to.  In Spanish, even. Nothing they can do (unless your'e at a POE, of course).   I know.  Been there, done that. Been told to piss-off many times.  Didn't bother me none ... I like it when people stand up for their rights.  Or you could be polite, choose not to be offended, and proudly proclaim your US Citizenship or legal resident/visitor status.  Personally, I suggest if you don't want to answer the question to decline politely and with a smile.  No reason to give the young Agent a hard time ...s/he's just doing their job.  Your choice to be an ass or not.  That's the beauty of America! (and what makes me libertarian-ish)  Very Happy

Nothing unlawful or unconstitutional about this. (yeah, it's already been challenged in court ... long ago)    See 8 USC 1357.  Here ... I'll even give ya a link to it:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1357 

Go visit some other countries and see how they do things there.  This is nothing by comparison.  Don't like it?  Write your congressperson to sponsor some legislation and change it.  That's how the country works, ya know.

So ... how come you're not bitchin' about the po-po running drug dogs over your baggage when you ride the Greyhound?  Or private companies in cahoots with State/local governments & LE agencies  tracking your vehicle's movements throughout the country and putting them in big databases via the increasingly ubiquitous license plate scanners?  Or a lot of other things that actually invade the privacy of citizens?  

See all the BP units out there on I-10 shotgunning for drug & money loads?   Along with all the HIDTA funded State & local units.  Not bitching about that are ya?  (I'll tell you a little secret 'bout that ... they're not really looking for alien smuggling loads, not sexy enough & too much work.  It's dope & money they're lookng to catch.  You get a bigger gold star for those. )

View user profile

I grew up in South Texas and made many trips to Mexico. Even if I hadn't done that, I was still surrounded by Hispanic culture, language, food, music, etc. It's as much a part of me as my own heritage. I resent your cavalier attitude toward the plight of these people, many of whom are seeking refuge from certain bodily harm and/or death. This is an obvious intent to inflict harm for political points...and it makes me sick.

View user profile
Floridatexan wrote:
I grew up in South Texas and made many trips to Mexico.  Even if I hadn't done that, I was still surrounded by Hispanic culture, language, food, music, etc.  It's as much a part of me as my own heritage.  I resent your cavalier attitude toward the plight of these people, many of whom are seeking refuge from certain bodily harm and/or death.  This is an obvious intent to inflict harm for political points...and it makes me sick.

Oh ... we're going to make it a "racial" thing now? Yawn. How predictable.

I can only presume you are talking about Jeff Sessions' change in asylum policy? If so, I can tell you I believe Sessions is correct in that: "the asylum statute does not provide redress for all misfortune. It applies when persecution arises on account of membership in a protected group and the victim may not find protection except by taking refuge in another country."

I don't go along with Jeff Sessions on everything (like the new zero-tolerance policy for prosecuting 8 USC 1325).... but he's pretty much a straight-arrow when it comes to the law.

Now, that said ... I am a proponent of greatly expanding "legal" immigration to this country ... because I think it's good for the country, particularly at this point in time with our declining birthrate and low unemployment.

If you think our immigration laws are draconian ... you should check out those of most other countries in the world.

View user profile
I didn't see 1 word in that post about race other than YOU saying "Oh ... we're going to make it a "racial" thing now? Yawn. How predictable." It's about citizenship and where they came from, NOT race.

View user profile
Jake92 wrote:I didn't see 1 word in that post about race other than YOU saying "Oh ... we're going to make it a "racial" thing now? Yawn. How predictable."  It's about citizenship and where they came from, NOT race.

All 'Flo's' virtue signaling about how apretado she is with the paisanos .. that's not making a racial thing out of an objective discussion of immigration policy?

You are exactly correct in your last sentence  .. it's not about "race".  So for purposes of this discussion I could care less how much time one has spent around Latinos, or even if they happen to be Latino.   it's irrelevant.  Not anymore than the fact my wife was raised mostly by a Mexican-American stepfather (2nd generation) and has four brothers and sisters who are half Hispanic.

It's like somebody from white-bread suburbia saying, "Oh, but I have some black friends" .. as though that lends their argument on any topic some gravitas.

In my personal experience I've met people from all over the world and I've found there's angels, there's *ssholes, and everything in between in every demographic. But it's really here nor there as regards an immigration policy discussion.

View user profile
Jake92 wrote:I didn't see 1 word in that post about race other than YOU saying "Oh ... we're going to make it a "racial" thing now? Yawn. How predictable."  It's about citizenship and where they came from, NOT race.

Where they come from? You mean Mexico? Read some history, Sparky:

View user profile
Deus X wrote:


And before that?  And before that?  

Where did the Spanish get the terrirory from?  Neither Mexico nor Spain ever really exercised much control over the vast majority of what is now the American Southwest anyway .. so their claim even then and was actually quite tenuous.

The world changes ... continually, 'Deuce'

View user profile
EmeraldGhost wrote:

And before that?  And before that?  

Where did the Spanish get the terrirory from?  Neither Mexico nor Spain ever really exercised much control over the vast majority of what is now the American Southwest anyway .. so their claim even then and was actually quite tenuous.  

The world changes ... continually, 'Deuce'

Oh, please, Mexico was an independent country and a republic after whatever treaty it was when Spain granted independence in the 1820s.

We invaded it in the 1850s on a  pretext as phony as Bush's WMDs and hijacked the entire American Southwest by force of arms. Then, to make it worse, we turned Mexicans living in that territory into second-class citizens, denied them citizenship and stole their land.

The Mexican War and its aftermath was an American disgrace.

View user profile

Sponsored content


Back to top  Message [Page 1 of 2]

Go to page : 1, 2  Next

Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum