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The Federal Bureaucracy ... an analogy

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1 The Federal Bureaucracy ... an analogy on Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:43 am

This thread is intended to be neither right, left, nor center.   A little analogy that came into my head some years ago dealing with the frustrations of trying to get things done within the Federal bureaucracy.

We've all heard of the "Ship of State", right?   Well, I like to think of it like an old time sailing ship.  Now I think its safe to say using that analogy most people could see the POTUS as the person navigating and at the helm turning the rudder this way & that according to which direction the POTUS would like to see the country go.  But you need more than a compass, rudder, wheel, and  helmsman .... you need sails too (laws, regulations, programs, policies,  etc)  to propel the ship and people to set the sails in the proper direction in coordination with the Captain/navigator/helmsman.  .  Well, there's your Congress.  

So if the seas are stormy ... and the helmsman swings the rudder in one direction while the sailmaster has the crew set the sails in some opposite direction what's gonna happen?  The ship's gonna founder ... that's what.  

But there is something that prevents this from the ship from going down when the captain & crew start getting at odds with what each other is doing (laws, regulations, polices, etc.) That third element is down in the deep, dank, moldy, dark recesses in the bottom of the ship .. the ballast. Some call it "the swamp", some like to call it "the deep State"    What it is really is a bunch of rocks .... there's your Federal bureaucracy.   Keeps things from happening too fast regardless of what the Captain and crew are doing.  

And that's why a certain amount of inefficiency in government can actually be a good thing .. and especially when the Captain and crew keeps continually changing every two, four, six, or eight years regardless of their sailing experience/competency or agreement with each other in which direction the ship should go at any particular moment in time  ... but the same ballast (a buncha rocks!) remains, keeping the ship stable in stormy seas.

Thoughts, anyone?




(And the rest of us?.... well, we're just the passengers.  We vote for Captain and crew to take us to our desired destinations ... something upon which we continually disagree.   Some of us in First Class, some Second ... and some in steerage who get one bowl of porridge and some hard tack to eat each day and are required to swab the decks from 9 to 5 daily just for that.  All the while 1st class feasts & partys with the Captain & crew ... slipping them generous tips here & there via the ship's purser (aka: lobbyists) to make sure port calls are made to their favorite ports.   Is there a lesson in that?  I don't know ... "never travel in steerage", maybe?  Laughing )

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2 Re: The Federal Bureaucracy ... an analogy on Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:01 pm

Thoughts, anyone?




Yes. Hillary would make a better captain than the orange shit stain in there now but at least we didn't end up with the Aleppo oblivious stoner Gary's Johnson.


lol!

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3 Re: The Federal Bureaucracy ... an analogy on Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:19 pm

Telstar wrote:Thoughts, anyone?




Yes. Hillary would make a better captain than the orange shit stain in there now but at least we didn't end up with the Aleppo oblivious stoner Gary's Johnson.


lol!

Attempting to derail non-partisan threads with irrelevant partisan attacks is not only rude,. it destroys whatever credibility you might have 'tellie" and contributes nothing for yourself or anyone else to chew on intellectually.  If you want to re-hash the election feel free to start a thread.   But hey ... if it makes you feel better, like you're "winning" or something?, well, carry on then I s'pose.  It's not too hard to just completely disregard or even bother to read anything you might post on here ... and frankly, I've seen little of actual value come from your keyboard that might actually serve to further any discussion/conversation.    When I stop & think about it ...  the tone, rhetoric, and language of many of your posts are actually not too much unlike the "orange shit stain" as you might like to think.

(It's neither here nor there, but for the record I'd probably have kicked you off the board I used to moderate long ago.)

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4 Re: The Federal Bureaucracy ... an analogy on Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:57 pm

EmeraldGhost wrote:This thread is intended to be neither right, left, nor center.   A little analogy that came into my head some years ago dealing with the frustrations of trying to get things done within the Federal bureaucracy.

We've all heard of the "Ship of State", right?   Well, I like to think of it like an old time sailing ship.  Now I think its safe to say using that analogy most people could see the POTUS as the person navigating and at the helm turning the rudder this way & that according to which direction the POTUS would like to see the country go.  But you need more than a compass, rudder, wheel, and  helmsman .... you need sails too (laws, regulations, programs, policies,  etc)  to propel the ship and people to set the sails in the proper direction in coordination with the Captain/navigator/helmsman.  .  Well, there's your Congress.  

So if the seas are stormy ... and the helmsman swings the rudder in one direction while the sailmaster has the crew set the sails in some opposite direction what's gonna happen?  The ship's gonna founder ... that's what.  

But there is something that prevents this from the ship from going down when the captain & crew start getting at odds with what each other is doing (laws, regulations, polices, etc.) That third element is down in the deep, dank, moldy, dark recesses in the bottom of the ship .. the ballast. Some call it "the swamp", some like to call it "the deep State"    What it is really is a bunch of rocks .... there's your Federal bureaucracy.   Keeps things from happening too fast regardless of what the Captain and crew are doing.  

And that's why a certain amount of inefficiency in government can actually be a good thing .. and especially when the Captain and crew keeps continually changing every two, four, six, or eight years regardless of their sailing experience/competency or agreement with each other in which direction the ship should go at any particular moment in time  ... but the same ballast (a buncha rocks!) remains, keeping the ship stable in stormy seas.

Thoughts, anyone?




(And the rest of us?.... well, we're just the passengers.  We vote for Captain and crew to take us to our desired destinations ... something upon which we continually disagree.   Some of us in First Class, some Second ... and some in steerage who get one bowl of porridge and some hard tack to eat each day and are required to swab the decks from 9 to 5 daily just for that.  All the while 1st class feasts & partys with the Captain & crew ... slipping them generous tips here & there via the ship's purser (aka: lobbyists) to make sure port calls are made to their favorite ports.   Is there a lesson in that?  I don't know ... "never travel in steerage", maybe?  )

I like this and think it's pretty accurate--you obviously put some thought into it--but I'm not sure a "little analogy" that takes 400 words to explain is particularly useful literary device.

The picture's nice, though.

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5 Re: The Federal Bureaucracy ... an analogy on Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:05 pm

Great thread. The federal bureaucracy IS really like ballast in the ship of state – politicians come and go but the bureaucrats remain, plugging away keeping the ship fairly stable. The success or failure of elected government officials depend more on these folks than political rhetoric. A politician can push an initiative but invariably moves on to the next hot topic in their never ending quest to garner votes and stay in the public eye. The ‘crats remain, actually shaping policy to fit their myriad regulations and to some extent personal agendas. Fortunately there is generally enough internal and external oversight to make sure they don’t try to build too great a wall between the reality of running a government and the political fantasies of the elected ones. We are fortunate in this country not to have to deal with wide-spread corruption among these ‘crats as in many other countries. Perfect? No of course not, but fairly good overall.

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6 Re: The Federal Bureaucracy ... an analogy on Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:16 pm

gatorfan wrote:... The success or failure of elected government officials depend more on these folks than political rhetoric. A politician can push an initiative but invariably moves on to the next hot topic in their never ending quest to garner votes and stay in the public eye. ....

Yup.  We used to call it "the flavor of the month" whenever certain initiatives or policy change directives would come down from on-high & we knew it'd just go by the wayside after awhile.    Make the bare minimum effort towards compliance and keep focused on your real work/mission that doesn't change all that much regardless of which party is holding the reins.

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7 Re: The Federal Bureaucracy ... an analogy on Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:28 pm

There are entrenched bureaucrats working to accomplish their political agenda that are constants... statists/ progressives.. I don't even think it's necessarily a R or L thing... just total faith and evangelization in govt.  These people have enormous power in effecting policy and regulations. Who wanted open borders 25 years ago? NWO? Socialism? On the legal/criminal side, the DOJ and the FBI have without a doubt become politically weaponized. An insider has a "matter" and everyone gets immunities... an outsider is wiretapped and leaked and raided and unmasked and gets Russian dossiers commissioned to get warrants. That's blind justice?

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8 Re: The Federal Bureaucracy ... an analogy on Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:51 pm

Deus X wrote: ...
--but I'm not sure a "little analogy" that takes 400 words to explain is particularly useful literary device.

The picture's nice, though.

What can I say ... words are cheap so I like to use lots of 'em. Sometimes with reckless abandon !!! Laughing Laughing

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9 Re: The Federal Bureaucracy ... an analogy on Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:56 pm

PkrBum wrote: ....   On the legal/criminal side, the DOJ and the FBI have without a doubt become politically weaponized. An insider has a "matter" and everyone gets immunities... an outsider is wiretapped and leaked and raided and unmasked and gets Russian dossiers commissioned to get warrants. That's blind justice?

Did you have some particular victim in mind when you wrote that?   Laughing







Man ... seems ya can't walk even one block down the proverbial street anymore without bumping into a "victim" of one political stripe or another.  Sometimes three or four of 'em.    Laughing  Laughing

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10 Re: The Federal Bureaucracy ... an analogy on Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:57 pm

EmeraldGhost wrote:
Telstar wrote:Thoughts, anyone?




Yes. Hillary would make a better captain than the orange shit stain in there now but at least we didn't end up with the Aleppo oblivious stoner Gary's Johnson.


lol!

Attempting to derail non-partisan threads with irrelevant partisan attacks is not only rude,. it destroys whatever credibility you might have 'tellie" and contributes nothing for yourself or anyone else to chew on intellectually.  If you want to re-hash the election feel free to start a thread.   But hey ... if it makes you feel better, like you're "winning" or something?, well, carry on then I s'pose.  It's not too hard to just completely disregard or even bother to read anything you might post on here ... and frankly, I've seen little of actual value come from your keyboard that might actually serve to further any discussion/conversation.    When I stop & think about it ...  the tone, rhetoric, and language of many of your posts are actually not too much unlike the "orange shit stain" as you might like to think.

(It's neither here nor there, but for the record I'd probably have kicked you off the board I used to moderate long ago.)






You wouldn't kick me off if I passed the bong to you first fuck face. I can give a rats ass what you think of of my posts and Pat will tell you the same, Lurch.

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11 Re: The Federal Bureaucracy ... an analogy on Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:01 pm

It's a joke that leftists pine about "possible" quid-quo-pro with Russia! Wtf is wrong with you people? You turn a blind eye when it was done right in front of you by your own team but look under every nook and cranny just in case the other team might have done it. How do we take you seriously? If you are not calling for ALL Russian colluders heads to roll, you have no credibility.

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12 Re: The Federal Bureaucracy ... an analogy on Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:04 am

Telstar wrote:

You wouldn't kick me off if I passed the bong to you first fuck face. I can give a rats ass what you think of of my posts and Pat will tell you the same, Lurch.

You apparently have shitty weed anyway (and maybe HIV-1, hepatitis, or some other nasty thing) .....    so yeah, I wouldn't take that bong from you.   :lol

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13 Re: The Federal Bureaucracy ... an analogy on Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:41 am

EmeraldGhost wrote:
Telstar wrote:

You wouldn't kick me off if I passed the bong to you first fuck face. I can give a rats ass what you think of of my posts and Pat will tell you the same, Lurch.

You apparently have shitty weed anyway (and maybe HIV-1, hepatitis, or some other nasty thing) .....    so yeah, I wouldn't take that bong from you.   :lol







That's not what Pat told me.

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14 Re: The Federal Bureaucracy ... an analogy on Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:20 am

EmeraldGhost wrote:
Telstar wrote:

You wouldn't kick me off if I passed the bong to you first fuck face. I can give a rats ass what you think of of my posts and Pat will tell you the same, Lurch.

You apparently have shitty weed anyway (and maybe HIV-1, hepatitis, or some other nasty thing) .....    so yeah, I wouldn't take that bong from you.   :lol

Well, since we're already off-topic .....  in related news: link:

 New York Times - John Boehner Says, ‘My Thinking on Cannabis Has Evolved’


...  “I’m convinced de-scheduling the drug is needed so we can do research, help our veterans, and reverse the opioid epidemic ravaging our communities,” Mr. Boehner wrote on Twitter, referring to how the federal government classifies marijuana.

...

In an interview with Bloomberg, Mr. Boehner said he began to shift his opinion after seeing marijuana help a close friend deal with back pain. He said “you begin to really scratch your head” when looking at how many people are in prison for marijuana possession.

Well, dang Mr Boehner.   Shame you couldn't have done a little research and been a little more thoughtful about it when you were in office.   It's not like the info hasn't been out there for years and years.   Had to wait till you got out of office & got a lucrative job with a marijuana company before you came out of the closet, I s'pose.   What's the matter?  Now you done ruined your health with alcohol (poison) you've decided weed just might be an okay alternative after all?

How do these people sleep at night, I wonder?   (personally, I suggest an indica dominant hybrid Cool )

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15 Re: The Federal Bureaucracy ... an analogy on Thu May 03, 2018 9:05 pm

EmeraldGhost wrote:...What it is really is a bunch of rocks .... there's your Federal bureaucracy. Keeps things from happening too fast regardless of what the Captain and crew are doing...

Interesting concept, and I agree that it could be a good thing, except...

Congress relinquished oversight and lawmaking duties to bureaucrats many years ago, and now, instead of executing and enforcing laws made by us, they create laws that are in many cases self serving or ideology driven. Any law by its nature takes away some freedom, and in a free society, those who make laws must be elected.

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16 Re: The Federal Bureaucracy ... an analogy on Fri May 04, 2018 3:13 am

JohnSilver wrote:
Congress relinquished oversight and lawmaking duties to bureaucrats many years ago...

What utter horseshit! Here's a list of laws passed by just the 113th Congress in 2013-14:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_federal_legislation,_2001%E2%80%93present

If you're gonna post crazy bullshit, at least make a modest effort to have it resemble, if only coincidentally, reality!

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17 Re: The Federal Bureaucracy ... an analogy on Fri May 04, 2018 7:41 am

You are correct. Congress does still pass laws. But would you mind listing all rules and regulations created by federal government agencies other than congress during the same period?

Deus X wrote:
JohnSilver wrote:
Congress relinquished oversight and lawmaking duties to bureaucrats many years ago...

What utter horseshit! Here's a list of laws passed by just the 113th Congress in 2013-14:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_federal_legislation,_2001%E2%80%93present

If you're gonna post crazy bullshit, at least make a modest effort to have it resemble, if only coincidentally, reality!

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18 Re: The Federal Bureaucracy ... an analogy on Fri May 04, 2018 8:12 am

From: The 2017 Unconstitutionality Index: 18 Federal Rules for Every Law Congress Passes


Let’s look at it. In 2016, Congress passed “only” 211 Public Laws, per this preliminary tally I’ve derived from the Government Publishing Office’s archive of Public Laws through November 28th, plus Obama’s signed legislation outlined on the White House website since then.

Such annual tallies include legislative initiatives ranging from naming post offices after politicians and dignitaries, to major reworkings like Obamacare.

In 2016, things started with January’s “Child Nicotine Poisoning Prevention Act,” through the “No Veterans Crisis Line Call Should Go Unanswered Act” on November 28th, at which point there were 132 public law listed and is where to GPO count stands today. To this we add a preliminary count of 79 laws Obama signed since November 28th that have not yet made it to the GPO site. There may be a few more to come, but not much. So the 2016 preliminary total is 211.

The federal bureaucracy was far busier making laws than Congress, however.

By December 30th, the last workday of the year, in a record-setting Federal Register of 97,110 pages, agencies had issued 3,853 rules and regulations, 43 more than last year.

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19 Re: The Federal Bureaucracy ... an analogy on Fri May 04, 2018 11:24 am

JohnSilver wrote:From: The 2017 Unconstitutionality Index: 18 Federal Rules for Every Law Congress Passes


Let’s look at it. In 2016, Congress passed “only” 211 Public Laws, per this preliminary tally I’ve derived from the Government Publishing Office’s archive of Public Laws through November 28th, plus Obama’s signed legislation outlined on the White House website since then.

Such annual tallies include legislative initiatives ranging from naming post offices after politicians and dignitaries, to major reworkings like Obamacare.

In 2016, things started with January’s “Child Nicotine Poisoning Prevention Act,” through the “No Veterans Crisis Line Call Should Go Unanswered Act” on November 28th, at which point there were 132 public law listed and is where to GPO count stands today. To this we add a preliminary count of 79 laws Obama signed since November 28th that have not yet made it to the GPO site. There may be a few more to come, but not much. So the 2016 preliminary total is 211.

The federal bureaucracy was far busier making laws than Congress, however.

By December 30th, the last workday of the year, in a record-setting Federal Register of 97,110 pages, agencies had issued 3,853 rules and regulations, 43 more than last year.

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20 Re: The Federal Bureaucracy ... an analogy on Fri May 04, 2018 1:46 pm

Ok, not quite Apples to Apples, but not seeing much difference between Regulation and Law.  Both carry the weight of law and are felt equally by businesses and individuals.  From a practical standpoint, the only difference I see is that Regulations can be put in place without debate/signoff by elected officials.  Explain please.

Floridatexan wrote:

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21 Re: The Federal Bureaucracy ... an analogy on Fri May 04, 2018 3:03 pm

There's no real way to change the statist/progressive direction this country is going. This admin may roll some regulation back... but ultimately we'll turn into a global socialist state. It's all the next generations will know.

May Day 1933 "When an opponent declares, "I will not come over to your side," I calmly say, "Your child belongs to us already... What are you? You will pass on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp. In a short time they will know nothing else but this new community." Adolf Hitler

https://www.dailywire.com/news/30222/how-politically-biased-are-universities-new-study-james-barrett

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22 Re: The Federal Bureaucracy ... an analogy on Fri May 04, 2018 10:18 pm

JohnSilver wrote:From: The 2017 Unconstitutionality Index: 18 Federal Rules for Every Law Congress Passes


Let’s look at it. In 2016, Congress passed “only” 211 Public Laws, per this preliminary tally I’ve derived from the Government Publishing Office’s archive of Public Laws through November 28th, plus Obama’s signed legislation outlined on the White House website since then.

Such annual tallies include legislative initiatives ranging from naming post offices after politicians and dignitaries, to major reworkings like Obamacare.

In 2016, things started with January’s “Child Nicotine Poisoning Prevention Act,” through the “No Veterans Crisis Line Call Should Go Unanswered Act” on November 28th, at which point there were 132 public law listed and is where to GPO count stands today. To this we add a preliminary count of 79 laws Obama signed since November 28th that have not yet made it to the GPO site. There may be a few more to come, but not much. So the 2016 preliminary total is 211.

The federal bureaucracy was far busier making laws than Congress, however.

By December 30th, the last workday of the year, in a record-setting Federal Register of 97,110 pages, agencies had issued 3,853 rules and regulations, 43 more than last year.

Let's take a look at the source for this quote, shall we?

Why look, it's the Competitive Enterprise Institute, a Koch-funded extreme right-wing "think" tank--can you say oxymoron?--with ties to Big Tobacco and Climate Change denial. Imagine that!

https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Competitive_Enterprise_Institute

And the poster is too dishonest--or maybe too stupid--to mention it up-front.

Poor Mr. Silver, he's too fuckin' dumb to think for himself. He has to spew other people's ridiculous opinions.

What's worse is he seems to actually believe them. What a silly goose he is.

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23 Re: The Federal Bureaucracy ... an analogy on Fri May 04, 2018 10:47 pm

Deus, I fully, 100% expected you to come back with a "Look at the right wing source!" reply.  Predictable.

I have to tell you, you've entered into a discussion that calls for a bit of courtesy and a bit of logic.  You've come armed with neither - the only thing in your toolbox is a healthy dose of immature, angry emotion.  I try not to attack, but since your parents (figuratively) won't spank you, someone has to (figuratively).  You may in fact be 40 years old, but you present as a juvenile and the world will continue to see you as such if you can only interact with profanity and insults.

Apologies to the OP. I'm gone - I really have better things to do than spar with a wanna be Mini Mao.

Deus X wrote:Let's take a look at the source for this quote, shall we?

Why look, it's the Competitive Enterprise Institute, a Koch-funded extreme right-wing "think" tank--can you say oxymoron?--with ties to Big Tobacco and Climate Change denial. Imagine that!

https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Competitive_Enterprise_Institute

And the poster is too dishonest--or maybe too stupid--to mention it up-front.

Poor Mr. Silver, he's too fuckin' dumb to think for himself. He has to spew other people's ridiculous opinions.

What's worse is he seems to actually believe them. What a silly goose he is.

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24 Re: The Federal Bureaucracy ... an analogy on Fri May 04, 2018 11:12 pm

JohnSilver wrote:
Apologies to the OP.  I'm gone - I really have better things to do than spar with a wanna be Mini Mao.

Buh-bye, you gutless twit. The kitchen, the heat--remember?

And you should apologize to the OP for posting such ridiculous drivel in a thread with a well thought out and well written first post.



Last edited by Deus X on Fri May 04, 2018 11:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

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25 Re: The Federal Bureaucracy ... an analogy on Fri May 04, 2018 11:14 pm

JohnSilver wrote:Deus, I fully, 100% expected you to come back with a "Look at the right wing source!" reply.  Predictable.

I have to tell you, you've entered into a discussion that calls for a bit of courtesy and a bit of logic.  You've come armed with neither - the only thing in your toolbox is a healthy dose of immature, angry emotion.  I try not to attack, but since your parents (figuratively) won't spank you, someone has to (figuratively).  You may in fact be 40 years old, but you present as a juvenile and the world will continue to see you as such if you can only interact with profanity and insults.

Apologies to the OP.  I'm gone - I really have better things to do than spar with a wanna be Mini Mao.

Deus X wrote:Let's take a look at the source for this quote, shall we?

Why look, it's the Competitive Enterprise Institute, a Koch-funded extreme right-wing "think" tank--can you say oxymoron?--with ties to Big Tobacco and Climate Change denial. Imagine that!

https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Competitive_Enterprise_Institute

And the poster is too dishonest--or maybe too stupid--to mention it up-front.

Poor Mr. Silver, he's too fuckin' dumb to think for himself. He has to spew other people's ridiculous opinions.

What's worse is he seems to actually believe them. What a silly goose he is.

I just block he and telstar. There's rarely any content or rational opinion... and certainly no discussion.

That was generous of you to try and to assign him an adult age. Good on ya.

There used to be a rather balanced spectrum of political leanings. I'm sure you can deduce how that ended.

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