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Harley closing manufacturing plant in Kansas......

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https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/harley-davidson-stock-tanks-amid-plan-to-shut-down-plant/ar-BBItkqD?li=BBnb7Kz

I guess Kelly Ann does not want to talk about that, or the stock market adjustments coming. Please note that the President tonight will talk about bonus payments. He will not talk about last years bonus payments, nor will he talk about why that thousand bucks was not added to their base pay. Smoke and mirrors. I cannot wait to see the final GDP numbers for 2016 vs. 2017. Not much different than the eight years of growth with President Obama, and certainly President Trump will never match Obama's stock recovery and rise in the market during his terms.

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2seaoat wrote:https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/harley-davidson-stock-tanks-amid-plan-to-shut-down-plant/ar-BBItkqD?li=BBnb7Kz

I guess Kelly Ann does not want to talk about that, or the stock market adjustments coming.  Please note that the President tonight will talk about bonus payments.  He will not talk about last years bonus payments, nor will he talk about why that thousand bucks was not added to their base pay.  Smoke and mirrors.  I cannot wait to see the final GDP numbers for 2016 vs. 2017.  Not much different than the eight years of growth with President Obama, and certainly President Trump will never match Obama's stock recovery and rise in the market during his terms.  

Harley's building a better bike than it ever has ... unfortunately they made a choice at some point (the 80's?) to go for the higher-end buyers and priced their bikes pretty danged expensive for the average joe.  

I don't know why anyone would buy a brand new one anyway (unless they just got money to burn)  Plenty of low mileage well-taken-care of Harleys out there for half the price ... esp in this particular area.   I'm currently riding an 03 Wide Glide myself.   Picked it up two or three years ago from a collector with 750 original miles.   I'll run the new off of it before I swap it out for something else in another year or two.   Maybe a Road King?   Fuel injection may be the greatest thing since sliced bread ... but there's just something about the way a carb'd Harley sounds & runs.

I'm not a snob about it though ..... I like a Harley, but I have ridden and owned several Jap bikes in my time too.   At least the 03 doesn't mark it's spot in the garage like most of my previous Harleys had a penchant to do.

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All the yuppie wannabees are getting old and dying. Harley is not all that with younger people. I still laugh about one of my business partners who is this overweight nerd who at sixty something got the whole outfit and the new Harley and became one of the yuppie bikers which caused Harley to open all those expensive showrooms along the interstate system in America. He only buys the best and their stupid pricing was more about keeping up with the jones than true love of riding.

I loved going to the fifty year anniversary at Sturgis where you could still find authentic bike lovers before it became a status symbol for yuppies. Harley has some hard times ahead.

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Buying or riding a motorcycle is obviously racist... just like yoga.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5465819/yoga-white-people-racist-tool-supremacists-michigan-state/

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I always laughed at a friend who is black who belonged to a bike club. They had these elaborate denim jackets with some incredible patches and they would get all dressed up and ride their bikes in a pack with a truck for breakdowns. Well he quit the club, and they sued him for return of his jacket and patches. He was piszed, but this fake macho surrounding wanabee bikers has no color barrier. He won and kept his jacket. A bunch of fifty something wanabees......color has nothing to do with it.

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Every working American who has not received a tax-reform-related bonus - that’s most workers - should immediately ask her or his boss when to expect the bonus.

Perhaps shortly after that the GOP will stop using scattered bonuses as a talking point. #WhereIsMyBonus

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Also...
Gibson guitars is closing their Memphis operations

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As AI and robotics become more and more advanced, humans are going to be moved out of--if not eliminated from--the manufacturing process. Eventually we are going to have to start paying people NOT to work or experimenting with UBI (Universal Basic Income) like Finland.

Otherwise nobody will have any money to buy stuff with.

Laissez Faire capitalism reminds me of yeast, an organism that eats sugar and excretes alcohol until it poisons its environment and dies.

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2seaoat wrote: .... Well he quit the club, and they sued him for return of his jacket and patches.  ....

They "sued" him to get his colors back? What kind of pussy bike club is that!

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And now it's time for a brief



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PkrBum wrote:Buying or riding a motorcycle is obviously racist... just like yoga.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5465819/yoga-white-people-racist-tool-supremacists-michigan-state/

Spoken like a true racist denier. Sad

Let's face it, Harley manufactures their products to appeal to the best possible audience.  Over the last three decades that means tweeking their 1940 design time and time again -- to provide maximum appeal to their most capable market: men over 50, who seek the opportunity to dress and pretend they're tough, wild, outlaws, while riding their machines in large groups.

Truth is, to a real bike driver who glories in flying through dangerous S-curves, the entire Harley line is a joke.  Show me a Harley that can handle and accelerate with a Hayabusa, or the latest high-powered Ducati.

Next time one of these pretend biker gangs roars by, count how many of these riders don't have grey hair.

The facts are, these pretenders aren't interested in the least in pushing their  riding skills and in skirting right up on the edge of losing control.  No way. The Harley crowd isn't interested in driving a bike.  They're interested in riding a bike and being seen. The best riders in the world are the guys who risk their lives and limbs riding against each other on race courses.  None drive Harleys.  

Harley's plant closing makes sense -- the company is interested in profit and loss.  And the very best part of their operation is the fact their products are priced high and targeted to please a growing audience of well-to-do older riders.

Expensive pretend bikes for pretend riders.

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Wordslinger wrote:Let's face it, Harley manufactures their products to appeal to the best possible audience.  Over the last three decades that means tweeking their 1940 design time and time again -- to provide maximum appeal to their most capable market: men over 50, who seek the opportunity to dress and pretend they're tough, wild, outlaws, while riding their machines in large groups.

Truth is, to a real bike driver who glories in flying through dangerous S-curves, the entire Harley line is a joke.  Show me a Harley that can handle and accelerate with a Hayabusa, or the latest high-powered Ducati.



"a real bike driver" ????   Well, for starters you mean "rider" ... not "driver" ... anyways, I've been riding motorized two-wheelers since I was eight years old.   And non-motorized ones since I was probably three.  I'm in my late 50's and never had a serious accident.   No "flying through dangerous s-curves for me!  

Why does motorcycling have to be for everybody about always trying to ride to the extreme.  You want to be safe, you want to be very competent, but everybody doesn't have to be on the level of a racing bike rider.

"A man's got to know his limitations"


Wordslinger wrote:
Next time one of these pretend biker gangs roars by, count how many of these riders don't have grey hair.  


There's riding clubs and there's MC's.  I don't view any of them as being "pretend."   What "gangs" are thse you speak of.  MC's and RC's are not "gangs"


Wordslinger wrote:
The facts are, these pretenders


If you're actually riding an mc, you're not pretending.   Get on one .. run it up to about 80 miles an hour.  Let go of the handle bars ... see if your crash feels "pretend."   Anyway ... most (not "all" of course) older riders I've met have either been riding bikes all their life .... or rode when they were younger and just getting back into it.


Wordslinger wrote:
aren't interested in the least in pushing their  riding skills and in skirting right up on the edge of losing control.


I've taken one mc riding course in my life.  $200.   I took it when I was in my 40's (requirement to ride w/o a helmet in Texas) and I'll have to say it was a really good course and I got a few valuable things out of it.   I have recommended these type courses to a lot of people since. (but nothing tops years of actual experience IMO)


Wordslinger wrote:
 No way. The Harley crowd isn't interested in driving a bike.  They're interested in riding a bike and being seen.


Some are, some aren't.   And so what if some are.   If that's one's motivation (or partial motivation) for buying themselves a Harley Davidson and dressing up like a pirate .... well, it may not be my thing, but let your freak-flag fly, I say!   Very Happy


Wordslinger wrote:
The best riders in the world are the guys who risk their lives and limbs riding against each other on race courses.  None drive Harleys.  


I have zero interest in risking life and limb trying to be the fastest rider around.



Wordslinger wrote:
Harley's plant closing makes sense -- the company is interested in profit and loss.  And the very best part of their operation is the fact their products are priced high and targeted to please a growing audience of well-to-do older riders.  


That particular paradigm is from the 1980's and it worked well for them for a couple of decades.  But things are changing.  Older well-heeled riders are becoming less and less of motorcycling market share.   And this is what Harley needs to realize if you ask me.  I've bought quite a bit of leather and even my last two bikes from some of those "well-to-do older riders" you're talking about who were getting out of riding .... most often due to back and other age-related problems.


Wordslinger wrote:

Expensive pretend bikes for pretend riders.  


....   everybody's gotta have somebody to look down on
Who they can feel better than at any time they please
Someone doin' somethin' dirty decent folks can frown on
If you can't find nobody else, then help yourself to me


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Anyways ... back to Harley-Davidson in particular.   So far as I've been able to tell (& I keep up on car, boat, real estate, and motorcycle prices) there's a glut of used Harleys on the market out there right now.  

Partly because many boomers I mentioned in my "paradigm" comment in my last post are aging-out ... and partly because it's kind of the nature of motorcycles that many people own them for a time, sell them, and then maybe get another years later or not.  The market is not quite the same as for autos and pickups where people own one all their lives ... it's probably more akin to the market in things like boats, snowmobiles, atv's, campers, etc.

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EmeraldGhost wrote:
Wordslinger wrote:Let's face it, Harley manufactures their products to appeal to the best possible audience.  Over the last three decades that means tweeking their 1940 design time and time again -- to provide maximum appeal to their most capable market: men over 50, who seek the opportunity to dress and pretend they're tough, wild, outlaws, while riding their machines in large groups.

Truth is, to a real bike driver who glories in flying through dangerous S-curves, the entire Harley line is a joke.  Show me a Harley that can handle and accelerate with a Hayabusa, or the latest high-powered Ducati.



"a real bike driver" ????   Well, for starters you mean "rider" ... not "driver" ... anyways, I've been riding motorized two-wheelers since I was eight years old.   And non-motorized ones since I was probably three.  I'm in my late 50's and never had a serious accident.   No "flying through dangerous s-curves for me!  

Why does motorcycling have to be for everybody about always trying to ride to the extreme.  You want to be safe, you want to be very competent, but everybody doesn't have to be on the level of a racing bike rider.

"A man's got to know his limitations"


Wordslinger wrote:
Next time one of these pretend biker gangs roars by, count how many of these riders don't have grey hair.  


There's riding clubs and there's MC's.  I don't view any of them as being "pretend."   What "gangs" are thse you speak of.  MC's and RC's are not "gangs"


Wordslinger wrote:
The facts are, these pretenders


If you're actually riding an mc, you're not pretending.   Get on one .. run it up to about 80 miles an hour.  Let go of the handle bars ... see if your crash feels "pretend."   Anyway ... most (not "all" of course) older riders I've met have either been riding bikes all their life .... or rode when they were younger and just getting back into it.


Wordslinger wrote:
aren't interested in the least in pushing their  riding skills and in skirting right up on the edge of losing control.


I've taken one mc riding course in my life.  $200.   I took it when I was in my 40's (requirement to ride w/o a helmet in Texas) and I'll have to say it was a really good course and I got a few valuable things out of it.   I have recommended these type courses to a lot of people since.  (but nothing tops years of actual experience IMO)


Wordslinger wrote:
 No way. The Harley crowd isn't interested in driving a bike.  They're interested in riding a bike and being seen.


Some are, some aren't.   And so what if some are.   If that's one's motivation (or partial motivation) for buying themselves a Harley Davidson and dressing up like a pirate .... well, it may not be my thing, but let your freak-flag fly, I say!   Very Happy


Wordslinger wrote:
The best riders in the world are the guys who risk their lives and limbs riding against each other on race courses.  None drive Harleys.  


I have zero interest in risking life and limb trying to be the fastest rider around.



Wordslinger wrote:
Harley's plant closing makes sense -- the company is interested in profit and loss.  And the very best part of their operation is the fact their products are priced high and targeted to please a growing audience of well-to-do older riders.  


That particular paradigm is from the 1980's and it worked well for them for a couple of decades.  But things are changing.  Older well-heeled riders are becoming less and less of motorcycling market share.   And this is what Harley needs to realize if you ask me.  I've bought quite a bit of leather and even my last two bikes from some of those "well-to-do older riders" you're talking about who were getting out of riding .... most often due to back and other age-related problems.


Wordslinger wrote:

Expensive pretend bikes for pretend riders.  


....   everybody's gotta have somebody to look down on
Who they can feel better than at any time they please
Someone doin' somethin' dirty decent folks can frown on
If you can't find nobody else, then help yourself to me


Thanks for the fun conversation. Street bikes today fall into two categories: 1) sport bikes and 2) cruisers. Sport bikes are mostly manufactured by Japan, Italy and Germany, and all Harley's are basically cruisers.

Cruisers are built for long ride comfort and offer moderate acceleration and handling capabilities. Their owners seek to enjoy the ride and frequently, the fun of riding with a group of similarly interested bikers. When in a group they invariably abide by the group's riding rules -- otherwise there would be mayhem. The cruiser rider is seldom an aggressive motorcycle driver.

The countering group who ride sport bikes and cafe racers most often enjoy solo rides where they can constantly work to improve their driving skills. Their machines offer superb acceleration, braking and handling capabilities and represent the cutting edge of high tech motorcycle design. In many cases, automobile manufacturers who also build bikes first test and refine new engine components on their bikes before incorporating them into their automobiles.

In my opinion, most cruiser riders are just that -- riders -- while most sportbike riders are interested in the driving of their machines. There's room for all, but watching a middle aged rider go by wearing his "colors" with leather fringe flowing off the ends of the handlebars is a study of Wannabeism. I think most of them truly are riding to be seen.

I'm 81 now, drove fast bikes and Porsches most of my adult life out in California where there are miles and miles of mountain curves to test your skills. I sold my last bike three years ago and miss driving one everytime a BMW or a Ducati or a Hayabusa goes by.

Cruiser or sport bike -- there's room for all.


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Wordslinger wrote:

I'm 81 now, drove fast bikes and Porsches most of my adult life out in California where there are miles and miles of mountain curves to test your skills.   


Never been into extreme riding ... except in a pinch when I have to be.

I've been a scuba diver for many years .... yet never had any desire to do cave diving.  While I could acquire that particular skill set if I wanted to, and I know a few people who do that (and but of course, they are better divers than most)  .... I really have no interest.   Am I a "pretend" diver?  

(by the by ... while I'm on the topic of scuba diving ... interestingly there are no Federal or State regulations on diving.   You don't even need a license and it's not illegal to dive without training/certification. )  



Last edited by EmeraldGhost on 2/5/2018, 10:27 am; edited 2 times in total

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As to people riding on motorcycles who you or I might think have no business riding a motorcycle ... well, ya pays your money & you takes your chances. You listen to good advice or you ignore it .... your choice. It's about liberty.  Darwin rules.   (None of us are getting out of this life alive anyway.)

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Let me know when the people who work for trump at Mar a go go get a BIG bonus.

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EmeraldGhost wrote:As to people riding on motorcycles who you or I might think have no business riding a motorcycle ... well, ya pays your money & you takes your chances. You listen to good advice or you ignore it .... your choice. It's about liberty.  Darwin rules.   (None of us are getting out of this life alive anyway.)

Whatever you decide to ride, PLEASE WEAR A HELMET!

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Floridatexan wrote:
EmeraldGhost wrote:As to people riding on motorcycles who you or I might think have no business riding a motorcycle ... well, ya pays your money & you takes your chances. You listen to good advice or you ignore it .... your choice. It's about liberty.  Darwin rules.   (None of us are getting out of this life alive anyway.)

Whatever you decide to ride, PLEASE WEAR A HELMET!

Amen to that!! The dumbest thing you see on the road is a motorcycle rider going by with his helmet attached to his sissy bar instead of on his head. Over the years I've come to learn when you a motorcycle rider in traffic wearing a T-shirt, no gloves, jeans and shower-clogs, you know you're watching someone who's never gone down and left a lot of his hide on the asphalt.

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Floridatexan wrote:
EmeraldGhost wrote:As to people riding on motorcycles who you or I might think have no business riding a motorcycle ... well, ya pays your money & you takes your chances. You listen to good advice or you ignore it .... your choice. It's about liberty.  Darwin rules.   (None of us are getting out of this life alive anyway.)

Whatever you decide to ride, PLEASE WEAR A HELMET!

Ah, I wear one sometimes and sometimes I don't.   Really depends on the situation/ride.

But hey, thank you ever so much for that unsolicited advice 'FloridaTexan', 'cause I'm a really stupid person who's never been anywhere or done anything in my life.   And I really need government to make lots of laws and regulations for me to abide by so I don't hurt myself. (I'm still lobbying for government mandated rubber mats in the bottom of bathtubs & showers, 'cause people just can't be trusted to make those kind of personal safety decisions themselves!)

Oh, and when you're driving around in your car or pickup ... PLEASE WEAR A HELMET!    Because you'll be safer; and think about the "cost to society" if you get in a crash and have a head injury that could have been prevented or minimized by wearing a helmet; and because "I care about you"  Razz (now, that said .... will my virtue-signalling medal come in the mail? Or will I have to go pick it up somewhere?)



Last edited by EmeraldGhost on 2/5/2018, 11:33 am; edited 1 time in total

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EmeraldGhost wrote:
Floridatexan wrote:
EmeraldGhost wrote:As to people riding on motorcycles who you or I might think have no business riding a motorcycle ... well, ya pays your money & you takes your chances. You listen to good advice or you ignore it .... your choice. It's about liberty.  Darwin rules.   (None of us are getting out of this life alive anyway.)

Whatever you decide to ride, PLEASE WEAR A HELMET!

Ah, I wear one sometimes and sometimes I don't.   Really depends on the situation/ride.

But hey, thank you ever so much for that unsolicited advice 'FloridaTexan', 'cause I'm a really stupid person who's never been anywhere or done anything in my life.   And I really need government to make lots of laws and regulations for me to abide by so I don't hurt myself. (I'm still lobbying for government mandated rubber mats in the bottom of bathtubs & showers, 'cause people just can't be trusted to make those kind of personal safety decisions themselves!)

Oh ... and when you're driving around in your car or pickup ... PLEASE WEAR A HELMET!    (because you'll be safer)  Razz

In Emerald's dream city there are no traffic laws or safety laws at all. Everyone is free to smash their skulls when they fall off their motorcycles. In my dream city, guys who don't wear helmets and crash get to pay for all their medical help on their own. I mean, if you're that stupid a bike rider, why should my taxes go to repair your self-made damages?

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Wordslinger wrote:  I mean, if you're that stupid a bike rider, why should my taxes go to repair your self-made damages?[/b]

How come you're not worried about me injuring myself scuba diving and making your taxes go up?

But hey, no worries, there "wordie' ... I got good health insurance and my co-pays go to catastrophic every year anyway, so I'm covered!   And think of the jobs I'll help sustain in the medical industry.  

If you want to be safe(er)(est) ... you shouldn't ride a motorcycle at all.  And there's probably a lot of cars & trucks out there you shouldn't drive.  

(believe it or not, I bought my last bike from an actual neurosurgeon ... in a couple of hours conversation when buying the bike he never once lectured me about wearing a helmet.   He could see I was an intelligent adult fully capable of making my own choices about such things.  I appreciated that ... and if we can get political for a moment ... that's why a lot of people disliked Hillary)

Interestingly, when Texas did away their helmet law they made proof of medical insurance a requirement to ride without a helmet ... and taking an MC riding course.



Last edited by EmeraldGhost on 2/5/2018, 11:44 am; edited 4 times in total

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Wordslinger wrote:
In Emerald's dream city there are no traffic laws or safety laws at all.  Everyone is free to smash their skulls when they fall off their motorcycles.

Your words, not mine.

Anyways, I'm not really a libertarian ... I just play one sometimes on the internet.  (oh, and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express once  Laughing  )

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EmeraldGhost wrote:
Wordslinger wrote:
In Emerald's dream city there are no traffic laws or safety laws at all.  Everyone is free to smash their skulls when they fall off their motorcycles.

Your words, not mine.

Anyways, I'm not really a libertarian ... I just play one sometimes on the internet.  (oh, and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express once  Laughing  )
That's funny!

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