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Roy Moore accused of sexual assault

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26 Re: Roy Moore accused of sexual assault on 11/11/2017, 7:25 pm

RealLindaL wrote:
Deus X wrote:
RealLindaL wrote:
Deus X wrote:I've got no sympathy for the women.

Gee, why am I not surprised at this?  Silly me for trying in the first place.

That's cheesy ad hominem comment. You've got no sympathy for the guy, it's always the male's fault in every situation, no matter what.

Silly you for not being able to muster an argument based on anything but sympathy for the poor, naive girls.

Silly you for not having any sympathy for an obviously troubled guy.

Ha! Spoken by the master of ad hominem attacks, and the purveyor of eminently predictable misogyny.

Silly me for expecting anything other than a response pretending to any knowledge of me whatsoever, much less how I think in "every situation."  Balderdash.  

Further, I never called them "poor naive girls."  You can put words in my mouth all day long, sir, but it doesn't make them real or true.  

Women, just like men, don't have to be naive, young, inexperienced, or anything else to be made extremely uncomfortable by the actions of a sexually deviant individual.   He chose to foist his particular perversion into their lives, whether or not his desires were consummated -- and just because he asked, however sweetly, doesn't make the situation any less strange or disturbing, very possibly to almost anyone except perhaps yourself.  

Whether or not I or anyone else has a modicum of sympathy for an off-kilter, troubled individual does not in any way change the fact that his action was disturbing to OTHERS, and he had no right to subject OTHERS to his weirdness, but took advantage of his power and status to do so anyway.    

Your defending this man is your privilege, but in my opinion, as I indicated in the beginning, you're missing a couple of big pieces, and maybe that's in more ways than one.

The true weirdness is that these bimbos STAYED IN THE ROOM after he asked them if it was okay. If they were offended by the request or even the idea, they could have left. But no, in your blinkered eyes its his fault for being weird. THEY COULD HAVE LEFT BUT THEY STAYED, nothing weird about that, huh?

You're just like some coddled brat that wants a "safe place" from all the offensive slings and arrows of life. Grow up.

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27 Re: Roy Moore accused of sexual assault on 11/11/2017, 9:31 pm

I'm not surprised at all that in those days, parents would allow their teens to date a man in his 30's. My dad was 10 years older than my mom and my husband's dad was 10 years older than his mom. And my grandfather was a good 20 years older than my grandmother. Times have changed very quickly over the second half of the 20th century and into the 21st. I honestly don't care what the situation is with Moore so long as it affects his chances of becoming a Senator in a negative way. The more I think about Louis CK, I don't think he will make it back into show business because of the simplicity and graphic nature of what he did. It's too easy to picture it in a woman's mind, and the picture is not a pretty one. Tonight we're hearing that Richard Dreyfus(who accused Kevin Spacey of approaching his son) is having to apologize for harassing women 30 years or so ago, and George Takei (who criticized Spacey for not coming out soon enough) is being accused of making inappropriate advances to a young man as well. It's like Niagra Falls, it just gets bigger and bigger as it comes down. And on top of all that, Spacey's brother claims their father was a sexual predator who constantly molested both of them. He claims he tried to take the sexual advances mostly on himself so his little brother wouldn't suffer so much, but he's a genuinely weird piece of work too.He said Spacey dropped the last name of his father when he went into show business and never looked back. The bro said he hasn't seen Spacey but once or twice in 40 years. No wonder Spacey never wanted to discuss sex publicly-evidently both he and his brother had pretty terrible childhoods. So, the story goes on.

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28 Re: Roy Moore accused of sexual assault on 11/11/2017, 9:40 pm

You're just like some coddled brat that wants a "safe place" from all the offensive slings and arrows of life. Grow up.

Coddled brat because somebody finds inviting someone to your home and then whacking off in front of them unseemly.....safe place......how about a sane place. If I want to see a monkey whack off I can go to Brookfield Zoo, but let us all be honest for a moment.......these people are weird. Some of the best artist in history were messed up and part of that artistic drive grows from their dysfunction. I mean what is it about these men who have some status and power thinking that their dicks are all important. Weiner lost his family, but Trump became President, so obviously those people who are saying that Christians forgive Moore would forgive me fondling their 14 year old granddaughter.......I mean come on America......have we lost our f'ing minds.

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29 Re: Roy Moore accused of sexual assault on 11/11/2017, 11:24 pm

I agree that no one is being a coddled brat, but if a man asks a women if she minds watching him masterbate, the answer should have been "yes, I mind." I'm not convinced that if a woman in comedy was extremely funny that she would have had to put up with this kind of behavior. I'm pretty sure Samantha Bee or Wanda Sykes wouldn't have stood there and watched Louis CK masterbate. It doesn't make it right for him to ask, nothing makes that right. But they could have walked away immediately, simply because a woman does not have to give  up her decency in order to succeed. She just has to be as good or better than a man at what she does, and that was true 30 years ago and it's still true today. No woman was ever forced to sleep her way to the top of a job. And if she wants to be on top that bad, maybe she doesn't need to be that obsessed with success. These women stood there and evidently they looked. He's a sick f--k to have wanted them to watch, but the truth is that that is not normal behavior for a man and there has to be something seriously missing in him to need that kind of satisfaction. I don't condone what any of these guys did, but shy of actual rape, most exhibitionists and guys who make desperate or hopeless sexual advances towards women or men need some mental help. These women weren't children.
And honestly, after 20 or 30 years, if you can't get over someone's unwanted sexual advance towards you, it might be you with the problem. Because growing up is about dropping those things that are damaging our psyches and moving on with life. You cannot determine what fate throws your way but you can always decide how you are going to allow it to affect you. As Eleanor Roosevelt said, no one can make you feel inferior without your consent. I've thought about those words at least two or three times a week since I was in my 20's and they completely changed my life.

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30 Re: Roy Moore accused of sexual assault on 11/12/2017, 12:55 am

2seaoat wrote:You're just like some coddled brat that wants a "safe place" from all the offensive slings and arrows of life. Grow up.

Coddled brat because somebody finds inviting someone to your home and then whacking off in front of them unseemly...

That's NOT a true representation of what I'm talking about. In the Louis CK case, he asked if it was okay first. At that point the women could have said "Eek! NO! That's disgusting" and left. RealLinda's extreme misandrist contention is that the mere asking was coercive and offensive because of the relative status of the participants.

Read the thread from post #16 to see what I'm talking about. Louis CK is getting a bad rap here.

Here's the link, again, to the original NYTimes article: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/09/arts/television/louis-ck-sexual-misconduct.html

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31 Re: Roy Moore accused of sexual assault on 11/12/2017, 3:04 am

bigdog wrote:a woman does not have to give  up her decency in order to succeed. She just has to be as good or better than a man at what she does, and that was true 30 years ago and it's still true today.

Thank you for rejecting the ridiculous "coddled brat" descriptive, but you'll forgive me if I opine that your statement above seems surprisingly naive, and so very easy to say.  Please remember that we're talking about an industry --entertainment (just as broadcast news, increasingly one and the same) -- in which the "casting couch" mentality has prevailed for decades.  That the piper is finally being paid signals, I hope, a sea change in our society, but the syndrome is far from curable by tossing around seemingly simple truisms.

I'll just add that, after all that's been learned in recent years regarding the abuse of power in the workplace (and in other relationship venues, including the home), and the complex interactions between those wielding perceived power and the used (or abused, depending on your viewpoint), including the psychological intracacies of "why they stay," I find some of the posts on this thread quite amazing, as if we hadn't absorbed a darned thing.

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32 Re: Roy Moore accused of sexual assault on 11/12/2017, 3:34 am

RealLindaL wrote: I find some of the posts on this thread quite amazing, as if we hadn't absorbed a darned thing.

Right, anyone that doesn't completely agree with your extreme misandry is "quite amazing"! In most instances of interpersonal conflict both sides have legitimate grievances but not in this one, with you it's always the evil male oppressor and helpless female victim.

Wake up, some of the recent flurry of accusations, as in every episode of this sort, are bullshit. I don't know which ones, I just know human beings well enough to know that some of it is bullshit. Wait and see, there's going to be a backlash from this and it ain't going to be good for women.

This whole sorry episode is turning into another McCarthy style witch hunt and you're perfectly willing to play the part of Tail-gunner Joe. Have you no decency?

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33 Re: Roy Moore accused of sexual assault on 11/12/2017, 2:35 pm

I don't think I am being naïve about the ability of women to progress in a normal workplace without giving into their bosses sleazy demands. I've had supervisors who hit on me too, and the answer was usually to ask them how their wives were doing. BTW, young, homosexual men don't have to be victims either. It may be somewhat different in show business, but I think that when you enter that field you probably expect to find some emotionally disturbed people working around you and you have to be doubly careful, but when you say a woman has to allow herself to be a victim, that's an insult to our sex, IMO. Sorry, but we just disagree on this one. I know the salaries of women aren't as high as those of men and I know this has been a problem for years, but that's not a reason for a woman to allow herself to be victimized by anyone.
Personally, I'd go collect a welfare check before I'd look at Louis CK's dick.  And if he tried to force me to engage with him, he might not have one of those little things to show off anymore.
There is just something to be said for taking up for your own self, ya' know?
And Women can do it.
And anybody can get over a sexual advance made towards them 40 years ago. If they can't, it's them that's nuts. I don't believe all the accusers either-maybe some, but not all.  it was the same thing with Bill Clinton. One comes out and is probably true,  but then another 10 want their name in the news. And way back when it happened, nobody said anything. Right..........

Women are not, and have never been, the weaker sex. Not even emotionally.Ask a psychiatrist.

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34 Re: Roy Moore accused of sexual assault on 11/13/2017, 12:26 am

Deus X wrote:I just read the NYTimes article about Louis CK and, I gotta tell you, I don't get what the big deal is. It's weird, this business of jerking off in front of women, but they have eyelids they can shut and mouths they can use to shout "No! Louis, what the fuck are you doing? Stop it! Put that thing away!" He wasn't tying them up and forcing them to watch ala Clockwork Orange.

Here's a quote from the article about another woman: "Another comedian, Rebecca Corry, said that while she was appearing with Louis C.K. on a television pilot in 2005, he asked if he could masturbate in front of her. She declined."

Another woman says she HEARD him masturbating ON THE PHONE! I mean, c'mon! So what?

Here's the link, read the article:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/09/arts/television/louis-ck-sexual-misconduct.html

Granted, this is a bizarre fetish but it's more akin to some kind of exhibitionism than it is molestation or abuse. It seems relatively benign to me.

Really, big fuckin' deal, some guy ASKS you if you'll watch him beat off. Even if he starts doing it, so what? Get up and leave or express strong disapproval.

The entertainment industry is rife with this kind of kinky behavior. It's more laughable than lamentable. The really sad thing is he probably doesn't even know why he does it.

Besides, there are probably very few mothers of teenage boys that haven't either accidentally caught them in the act or known about it and avoided disturbing them. "Uh...   never mind, son, I'll get the laundry later."

Really, grow up, folks. He's getting a bad deal here and I wish someone would stick up for him.

The only kind of man who would think it's not a big deal to disrespect women is a man who does not respect women.

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35 Re: Roy Moore accused of sexual assault on 11/13/2017, 1:10 am

Vikingwoman wrote:The only kind of man who would think it's not a big deal to disrespect women is a man who does not respect women.

Oh, bullshit! I don't respect shallowness or phoniness in people of either sex and a large portion of the female population are both. Go open a copy of Vogue or Glamour and look at the ads. THAT'S what I don't respect, marketing yourself as an object of desire rather than a complete person and the shallow obsession with stuff and status.

Being offended by some pathetic display of sexual screwiness is as much of an example of disrespect as performing it. Louis CK is more to be pitied than scorned.

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36 Re: Roy Moore accused of sexual assault on 11/13/2017, 1:14 am

What about a woman who took her clothes off in front of a man? For God's sake, some of them are riding on poles all over America and getting paid for it. The motions they make on those poles are definitely seductive, and no one arrests them. Is a man's body more disgusting than a woman's?
I'm not defending Louis CK, he definitely needs to find out why he has been an exhibitionist and deal with it, but it is exhibitionism an not assault or rape. Comedians who have healthy psyches are nearly non-existent in the field of entertainment. Very few people have turned to comedy because they've had perfect lives.
As a matter of fact, this week has just been ridiculous with accusations of sexual conduct that was NOT either assault nor rape. Harvey Weinstein's crimes were most likely actually crimes, but all the accusations of being approached and kissed without being asked and of having to pull yourself away from a hug-My GOD, these folks obviously didn't date back in the 60's and 70's when I did. If I could just work myself up to having been traumatized for the last 50 years over all the unwanted advances I had back then (and I've never been a beauty queen either) I could probably have at least 5 or 6 of the boys I dated arrested. One of them had to be told by both my brother and my dad to stay the hell away or they would beat him to the ground, but we didn't call the cops on people you were dating back then, unless you actually WERE raped. I hate to agree with anyone defending someone showing his privates to women, it goes against my nature, but the man did ASK. And these were not children.He needs treatment and to try and get his career back. If nobody wants to see him anymore, he won't make it back. The same with Kevin Spacey. Both of them have enough money to produce their own shows. They don't have to give up if they don't want to. It's going to all rest with the public opinion.

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37 Re: Roy Moore accused of sexual assault on 11/13/2017, 1:23 am

Deus X wrote:
Vikingwoman wrote:The only kind of man who would think it's not a big deal to disrespect women is a man who does not respect women.

Oh, bullshit! I don't respect shallowness or phoniness in people of either sex and a large portion of the female population are both. Go open a copy of Vogue or Glamour and look at the ads. THAT'S what I don't respect, marketing yourself as an object of desire rather than a complete person and the shallow obsession with stuff and status.

Being offended by some pathetic display of sexual screwiness is as much of an example of disrespect as performing it. Louis CK is more to be pitied than scorned.


That's why I said above I've always liked men better than Women, and generally gotten along with them better. Men are generally more honest.
I don't care what the other ladies on here say to that. Also, I can't talk politics, football, or fishing to most women because they do NOT know what the important things in life are.Smile Hubby married me because I wasn't a girly-girl and I carried the catch bag when he went mullet fishing. It's been 46 years and he hasn't asked me to get a pedicure yet. I'm proud of him.

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38 Re: Roy Moore accused of sexual assault on 11/13/2017, 3:11 am

Deus X wrote:
Vikingwoman wrote:The only kind of man who would think it's not a big deal to disrespect women is a man who does not respect women.

Oh, bullshit! I don't respect shallowness or phoniness in people of either sex and a large portion of the female population are both. Go open a copy of Vogue or Glamour and look at the ads. THAT'S what I don't respect, marketing yourself as an object of desire rather than a complete person and the shallow obsession with stuff and status.

Being offended by some pathetic display of sexual screwiness is as much of an example of disrespect as performing it. Louis CK is more to be pitied than scorned.

WTH does Vogue have to do w/ any of this? Listen Bub, you don't respect woman and that is clear. Whether the guy has a "sexual screwiness" takes away nothing from the fact it is a disrespectful act towards women. The fact that you think it's not a big deal means you don't have any respect either. End of story.

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39 Re: Roy Moore accused of sexual assault on 11/13/2017, 3:18 am

bigdog wrote:
Deus X wrote:
Vikingwoman wrote:The only kind of man who would think it's not a big deal to disrespect women is a man who does not respect women.

Oh, bullshit! I don't respect shallowness or phoniness in people of either sex and a large portion of the female population are both. Go open a copy of Vogue or Glamour and look at the ads. THAT'S what I don't respect, marketing yourself as an object of desire rather than a complete person and the shallow obsession with stuff and status.

Being offended by some pathetic display of sexual screwiness is as much of an example of disrespect as performing it. Louis CK is more to be pitied than scorned.
 

That's why I said above I've always liked men better than Women, and generally gotten along with them better. Men are generally more honest.
I don't care what the other ladies on here say to that. Also, I can't talk politics, football, or fishing to most women because they do NOT know what the important things in life are.Smile  Hubby married me because I wasn't a girly-girl and I carried the catch bag when he went mullet fishing. It's been 46 years and he hasn't asked me to get a pedicure yet. I'm proud of him.

Maybe your hubby just wanted another man and it wasn't socially acceptable back then... so he married you instead. And no men are not generally more honest. They cheat and lie more than women.

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40 Re: Roy Moore accused of sexual assault on 11/13/2017, 3:22 am

Uh oh! Cat fight!

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41 Re: Roy Moore accused of sexual assault on 11/13/2017, 9:13 am


OK, let me think about this for a minute...









HELL, NO!

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42 Re: Roy Moore accused of sexual assault on 11/13/2017, 10:29 am



That last panel pretty much sums up Republican voters' motivation for everything they do now. They're a party running on spite. They don't care how bad the results they get are, as long as it makes the smart people mad.

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43 Re: Roy Moore accused of sexual assault on 11/13/2017, 11:41 am

Vikingwoman wrote:
bigdog wrote:
Deus X wrote:
Vikingwoman wrote:The only kind of man who would think it's not a big deal to disrespect women is a man who does not respect women.

Oh, bullshit! I don't respect shallowness or phoniness in people of either sex and a large portion of the female population are both. Go open a copy of Vogue or Glamour and look at the ads. THAT'S what I don't respect, marketing yourself as an object of desire rather than a complete person and the shallow obsession with stuff and status.

Being offended by some pathetic display of sexual screwiness is as much of an example of disrespect as performing it. Louis CK is more to be pitied than scorned.
 

That's why I said above I've always liked men better than Women, and generally gotten along with them better. Men are generally more honest.
I don't care what the other ladies on here say to that. Also, I can't talk politics, football, or fishing to most women because they do NOT know what the important things in life are.Smile  Hubby married me because I wasn't a girly-girl and I carried the catch bag when he went mullet fishing. It's been 46 years and he hasn't asked me to get a pedicure yet. I'm proud of him.

Maybe your hubby just wanted another man and it wasn't socially acceptable back then... so he married you instead. And no men are not generally more honest. They cheat and lie more than women.

Yep, I remember you well. Who are all those guys cheating with? They have to have a woman who is willing to cheat with them in order to do it. And I've been lied to and about by women far more than I ever have by men during my lifetime. Maybe your experience is different than mine. Or maybe you don't like men yourself. If my guess as to your old ID is correct, that much is surely so. What I'll say is this. When women began paying to see the Chippendales nearly naked dancing in front of their faces, they became the same as men. Up until about the 80's and the sexual revolution, that wasn't a thing a decent woman would do. So men think now that all women want to see their "pride" because they see it on TV and in the movies. I'll bet you everyone of these women has worn a string bikini to the beach and shown off every inch of themselves that is legally possible to show. Hey, and without asking if any men wanted to see them. Women can't expect to be treated like their mothers were unless they are willing to show a little common decency themselves. And by the way, I don't think you have any stance to say a man who has been married 46 years likes guys better when you obviously like women better. And here's the other truth- I'm 100% certain my husband doesn't lean that way, but if I found out today that he did, I'd still love him just as much. I married my best friend which is my number one recommendation to anyone getting married today. I'm 68 years old, sex doesn't last forever but best friends do.

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44 Re: Roy Moore accused of sexual assault on 11/13/2017, 4:15 pm

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45 Re: Roy Moore accused of sexual assault on 11/13/2017, 4:30 pm

That's a good article FT, but it doesn't address the problem of nudity when it is consentual. When he asked the women if they minded and they said "no," I think that would negate any possibility of him having broken the law.
It was a disgusting act, I agree with that totally. I see some things on our public beaches that disgust me, but there's nothing I can do about them. I have a feeling there's no case here. I think it will be up to the court of public opinion. His career may be over and so may Kevin Spacey's but they both have the money to keep producing their own work if they choose to do so. I'm betting they both will. You have to remember that Americans elected a "pussy grabber" to the highest office in the country, so you really can't predict how they will respond to all the weeks allegations.

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46 Re: Roy Moore accused of sexual assault on 11/13/2017, 5:31 pm

bigdog wrote:That's a good article FT, but it doesn't address the problem of nudity when it is consentual. When he asked the women if they minded and they said "no," I think that would negate any possibility of him having broken the law.
It was a disgusting act, I agree with that totally. I see some things on our public beaches that disgust me, but there's nothing I can do about them. I have a feeling there's no case here. I think it will be up to the court of public opinion. His career may be over and so may Kevin Spacey's but they both have the money to keep producing their own work if they choose to do so. I'm betting they both will. You have to remember that Americans elected a "pussy grabber" to the highest office in the country, so you really can't predict how they will respond to all the weeks allegations.

I don't really care about Louis CK and his problems, but I lost a job in the past because the big boss tried to seduce me...It didn't matter what my response was; either way, all was lost for me, and I really liked that job. I didn't tell anyone about the advance at the time, but not much time elapsed before I was fired...had to go to arbitration to collect unemployment. That's when I told my immediate boss what had happened.

I'm picturing some cramped dressing rooms backstage, with a small waiting area where the acts waited to go on. He may not have committed a crime, but he sure is disgusting. I wouldn't call what he says he did "consensual". Try again.

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47 Re: Roy Moore accused of sexual assault on 11/13/2017, 7:14 pm

Oh, I agree with you that it was a disgusting thing to do, there's no doubt about that. I also suspect that if you traded Johnny Depp's head and body for Louis CK's you'd find a lot more people defending him. He has a serious physical resemblance to Harvey Weinstein, which does him no good at all.
My problem is that these women admit he asked them if it was okay before he did it. Then they stood there and watched (closing your eyes is a VERY easy thing to do, btw) and waited 20 years to realize how traumatized they had been about it.  I think someone wants some money out of this thing and it isn't Louis CK. And I do stand by the fact that unless a woman is actually raped she should not be emotionally traumatized for 20 or 30 years. Just like most girls, I had to strongly disagree , shall we say, with some boys about what direction a date was headed on several occasions. On at least one it took a good kick to get the point over, but I was never emotionally "traumatized." That's a strong term to use and to stretch your own pain out for 20 years is just sick, IMO.
I don't feel sorry for CK, he did something disgusting. But I also think this is about getting some money from someone who has made it big in his profession.
Maybe I don't have the proper girly girl credentials but if you have to be emotionally scarred by seeing a man's dick for the next 20 years I'm really glad not to have them. Sorry to hear about your job experience and it's good that nowadays most businesses have human resources offices to handle those things.

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48 Re: Roy Moore accused of sexual assault on 11/13/2017, 8:03 pm

What would the reaction be if the sexes were reversed, if the comedian was a female and the observers male? I suspect that males would react differently than the two females in this instance--less outrage and more hysterical laughter, among males at least.

Why is the "outrage" reaction more valid than the "laugh about it" reaction? It seems to me that males have to understand and internalize the female reaction but females discount the male reaction. Why is one more right, more valid, than the other?

P.S. There's a new allegation against Roy Moore and it's much worse: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/13/us/politics/roy-moore-alabama-senate.html

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49 Re: Roy Moore accused of sexual assault on 11/13/2017, 9:07 pm

Oh, this is outrageous:

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/lena-headey-response-louis-c-203444941.html


The press is all over praising Lena Headey for her comments about Louis CK. This is a woman who spent 10 minutes of my TV watching life by walking butt naked across my TV screen while people threw blobs of fake shit at her. She didn't ask me if I wanted to see her stick insect body naked on my screen, if I wanted to watch GOT, I had to watch it. I actually did turn my head away several times because the bitch grossed me out with her total lack of decency on the screen. She did it in a way that every single person on the planet with a TV set could watch her. I don't care if it was "artistic" or if it was part of the show, it was still Lena Headey not caring one bit if people saw every inch of her naked. This is where the total hypocrisy of womankind enters the picture here- it's okay for her to show herself to the entire planet but not for a man who asked permission to show himself to 4 women. Both of their activities were disgusting and gross to me, and nobody asked me it I would feel disrespected by their actions. What's the difference? Is it that men have Penises and women don't? That's not really their fault, is it?
BTW, I didn't really feel disrespected, just grossed out. People need to get a grip on themselves, not everybody wants to see you naked. But whether it's a man or a woman should make no difference.

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50 Re: Roy Moore accused of sexual assault on 11/14/2017, 11:42 am

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