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As our rich got richer, our country got poorer. Trump loves the rich.

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Masquerading as a working-man's populist during his ongoing campaign, Trump's words are one thing and his actions another.

His proposed healthcare and tax cut programs give the rich MORE and MORE, while stealing it all from the rest of us.

Trump's promises are as credible as his marriage vows to all his wives.

Reality.

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Wordslinger wrote:Masquerading as a working-man's populist during his ongoing campaign, Trump's words are one thing and his actions another.

His proposed healthcare and tax cut programs give the rich MORE and MORE, while stealing it all from the rest of us.

Trump's promises are as credible as his marriage vows to all his wives.

Reality.

And the Republicans just gave him cover for his blunders by saying he's "new" and "not an experienced politician".

God help us all when he gets his sea legs! YIKES!

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Wordslinger wrote:Masquerading as a working-man's populist during his ongoing campaign, Trump's words are one thing and his actions another.

His proposed healthcare and tax cut programs give the rich MORE and MORE, while stealing it all from the rest of us.

Trump's promises are as credible as his marriage vows to all his wives.

Reality.

Remember the good old days when you spent all your energy telling us just how evil and unacceptable Hillary was? ...

... I do.


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You're right. What I said was we were presented corruption vs. insanity, and obviously we chose insanity. I also said that whichever of these two won, we the people would be the loser. Hillary's adamant stand for keeping corporate support and voicing a campaign that mostly insulted Trump, brought her own demise. What the country didn't want was more of the same -- which is exactly what Hillary represented.

Bernie was my man then, and now.

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Wordslinger wrote:You're right. What I said was we were presented corruption vs. insanity, and obviously we chose insanity.  I also said that whichever of these two won, we the people would be the loser.  Hillary's adamant stand for keeping corporate support and voicing a campaign that mostly insulted Trump, brought her own demise.  What the country didn't want was more of the same -- which is exactly what Hillary represented.

Bernie was my man then, and now.

Hillary would've protected and expanded the ACA ...

... you should start and end right there.

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Just moments ago there was some Republican explaining why the tax cuts should go to the rich. It is the same trickle-down nonsense they expect people to keep believing in spite of the fact that it is unnecessary and doesn't work anyway. The reason the rich get the tax cuts is because they have a congress that will give them the cuts and they are basically too greedy to care about how this effects the rest of the country.

Is this the "moral majority" that Newt, Tom Delay etc. brought us back in the 70's? Who raised these people?

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Sal wrote:
Wordslinger wrote:You're right. What I said was we were presented corruption vs. insanity, and obviously we chose insanity.  I also said that whichever of these two won, we the people would be the loser.  Hillary's adamant stand for keeping corporate support and voicing a campaign that mostly insulted Trump, brought her own demise.  What the country didn't want was more of the same -- which is exactly what Hillary represented.

Bernie was my man then, and now.

Hillary would've protected and expanded the ACA ...

... you should start and end right there.

Just what does beating a dead horse bring you? Hillary is no longer relevant. Bernie and Warren are the most popular politicians in America right now. And the republicans own the White House, and both houses in congress.

Fact: Hillary was crooked as hell and Trump is insane.

Reality.

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Wordslinger wrote:
Sal wrote:
Wordslinger wrote:You're right. What I said was we were presented corruption vs. insanity, and obviously we chose insanity.  I also said that whichever of these two won, we the people would be the loser.  Hillary's adamant stand for keeping corporate support and voicing a campaign that mostly insulted Trump, brought her own demise.  What the country didn't want was more of the same -- which is exactly what Hillary represented.

Bernie was my man then, and now.

Hillary would've protected and expanded the ACA ...

... you should start and end right there.

Just what does beating a dead horse bring you?  Hillary is no longer relevant.  Bernie and Warren are the most popular politicians in America right now.  And the republicans own the White House, and both houses in congress.

Fact:  Hillary was crooked as hell and Trump is insane.  

Reality.

I was no fan of Hillary's even though I voted for her for obvious reasons. I hardly think her alleged "crookedness" would reach the levels possible with Trump. Let's wait until Mueller finishes his investigations and then we'll see who is crooked.

We were afraid she'd be too cozy with the Wall Street gang and look what we have now in the cabinet. Even on the Insane/Crazy spectrum it looks as if Trump has her beat on both criteria. Not only is he crooked but his whole family is mixed up in shady dealings around the globe.

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Sal wrote:
Hillary would've protected and expanded the ACA ...
... you should start and end right there.

Doubtless she would have. Wanna know why?

Because the Clintons and their DNC toadies are all pawns of Wall Street and insurance, as a financial intermediary, is an integral part of the Wall Street criminal enterprise--see AIG.

Obamacare should rightly be called the Health Insurance Profit Protection and Enhancement Act. according to Wendell Potter in this article: http://inthesetimes.com/article/19997/trumpcare-insurance-the-american-health-care-act

She would have opposed with her dying breath public insurance or single-payer which are the real solutions to our healthcare problems, not more give-aways to insurance companies.

You have to ask yourself why every state has an Insurance Commissioner or the equivalent.  It's because, since Colonial times, it's been well know that Insurance companies are inherently crooked and will stop at nothing to screw their customers. And Hillary is part of that screwing...   and not the good part, either.

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del.capslock wrote:

Doubtless she would have. Wanna know why?



For the same reasons that Obama settled for the ACA in the first place - because it's achievable and because it improves people's lives.

Sorry, but your unicorn is on backorder until never.

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Bernie was my man then, and now.

Yep, Bernie voters cast their votes for Stein and insured that President Trump won. This is on Bernie and the Fuzzy thinking which attacked Hillary Clinton as just one more Wall street shill. She was not. Yet, if Putin can so easily manipulate folks who think that the election should be about forgiving student loans, then it is no wonder that somebody won who is giving billionaires tax breaks. How about a novel idea. What is best for America. There are issues which 80% of America agree. It is not about forgiving student loans or giving billionaires tax breaks. It is about investments in infrastructure. It is about tax credits for job creation. It is about honesty in our election process. It is about less demonization of the other party, and more bipartisan compromise getting things done for average Americans. Sorry, those people who did not vote for Hillary and claim they are progressives are full of chit.

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2seaoat wrote:Bernie was my man then, and now.

  This is on Bernie and the Fuzzy thinking which attacked Hillary Clinton as just one more Wall street shill.   She was not.  

Oh, bullshit! Hillary didn't get those jumbo speaking fees because Goldman and JPM were in the habit of giving away free money. The Clintons have always been wolves for Wall Street hiding under populist sheepskins.

You keep talking about forgiving student loans as if that's a bad idea. Do you realize that government guaranteed student loans coupled with the inability of those--AND ONLY THOSE--debts to be discharged under bankruptcy have produced a student loan crisis? You gotta read something a little more current than old Wall Street Journals from the fifties.

Student loan debt is now the second highest consumer debt category - behind only mortgage debt - and higher than both credit cards and auto loans.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2017/02/21/student-loan-debt-statistics-2017/#3cc33d595dab

I don't know if you know it or can even remember that far back, but tuition has increased several-fold in the last 20 years. Did you not read about the For-profit school scams? Wake up.

You sound like a Republican with no concern for anyone but yourself. Your notions about conservative fiscal policy are rooted in an understanding of fundamental economics that predates Adam Smith, like you never gave up the idea of Mercantilism.

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del.capslock wrote:
Sal wrote:
Hillary would've protected and expanded the ACA ...
... you should start and end right there.

Doubtless she would have. Wanna know why?

Because the Clintons and their DNC toadies are all pawns of Wall Street and insurance, as a financial intermediary, is an integral part of the Wall Street criminal enterprise--see AIG.

Obamacare should rightly be called the Health Insurance Profit Protection and Enhancement Act. according to Wendell Potter in this article: http://inthesetimes.com/article/19997/trumpcare-insurance-the-american-health-care-act

She would have opposed with her dying breath public insurance or single-payer which are the real solutions to our healthcare problems, not more give-aways to insurance companies.

You have to ask yourself why every state has an Insurance Commissioner or the equivalent.  It's because, since Colonial times, it's been well know that Insurance companies are inherently crooked and will stop at nothing to screw their customers. And Hillary is part of that screwing...   and not the good part, either.

What does AIG have to do with the Clintons?

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I am a Republican. I think forgiving student loans is stupid. I have many answers for student loans. Limit Student loans to 15k a year with low interest loans. After the first 15k let a student get student loans which can be discharged in Bankruptcy and do not have low interest rates. I paid every dime of my education by working as my mother was widowed when I was 10. I walked in my Freshman year in college and paid all my room and board for the year, and tuition with one check which I earned. I paid the second year, and graduated with a BA in 2.5 years owing not one dime to anybody. My daughter who is in the SA office has a fellow young attorney who has 200k in student loans as it financed her lifestyle for seven years while getting her ba and law degree. I have zero sympathy for these folks. You go to a junior college, or like I did after I graduated early, I worked for nine months to pay for my graduate school, and post graduate studies.

I cleaned bathrooms, read water meters, bartended, worked as a machinist, worked in a warehouse, dishwashing, landscaped, and worked on automobile car lots all through high school to pay for my college, and I learned just as much working and saving as I did in the classroom. Fuzzy thinking gets monsters like President Trump who just like Bernie want to GIVE something away to his voters. Total BS. Bernie voters who wanted something for nothing put Trump in office as wealthy people are now getting something for nothing.......I want folks elected who ask what will you do for this country, not looking to get something for nothing.

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Floridatexan wrote:
What does AIG have to do with the Clintons?

It has nothing directly to do with the Clintons. The point I was trying to make--not very well, apparently--is that the insurance industry is an integral part of Wall Street and that the ACA is considered by some to be a vast give-away to the insurance companies.

If I recall, the Fed had to pull some real hocus-pocus to get AIG declared a "bank" so they could intervene. All of this is, of course, directly tied to the "modernization" of the financial industry with Gramm-Leach-Bliley which was signed by a President who-shall-remain-nameless-but-you-know-who-I-mean. If Glass-Steagall had not been repealed, none of this would have happened.

Wall Street is the Albatross around the neck of the Clintons.

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2seaoat wrote:I am a Republican.  I think forgiving student loans is stupid.  I have many answers for student loans.  Limit Student loans to 15k a year with low interest loans.   After the first 15k let a student get student loans which can be discharged in Bankruptcy and do not have low interest rates.   I paid every dime of my education by working as my mother was widowed when I was 10.  I walked in my Freshman year in college and paid all my room and board for the year, and tuition with one check which I earned.  I paid the second year, and graduated with a BA in 2.5 years owing not one dime to anybody.  My daughter who is in the SA office has a fellow young attorney who has 200k in student loans as it financed her lifestyle for seven years while getting her ba and law degree.   I have zero sympathy for these folks.   You go to a junior college, or like I did after I graduated early, I worked for nine months to pay for my graduate school, and post graduate studies.  

I cleaned bathrooms, read water meters, bartended, worked as a machinist, worked in a warehouse, dishwashing, landscaped, and worked on automobile car lots all through high school to pay for my college, and I learned just as much working and saving as I did in the classroom.   Fuzzy thinking gets monsters like President Trump who just like Bernie want to GIVE something away to his voters.   Total BS.  Bernie voters who wanted something for nothing put Trump in office as wealthy people are now getting something for nothing.......I want folks elected who ask what will you do for this country, not looking to get something for nothing.


Your thesis that "If I can do it, anyone else can" is ridiculous on the face. That's like Joe DiMaggio saying "If I can bat .300 anybody can".

Also you conveniently ignore the increased cost of a degree. There's no way you could have done that under today's conditions.  You can't make $200 grand washing dishes over the summer.

Don't you get tired of talking about yourself? You're starting to sound like Trump.

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I agree.

I worked my way through college as well, but the reality and the circumstances have changed dramatically.

The path I took 30 years ago is no longer available today.

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Hillary Clinton tried to pass health care for all in 1993. She was vilified for it, not only by the opponents of her bill, but for stepping outside the boundaries of her duties as First Lady. I am so sick of hearing from people who should know better, about the "corruption" of the Clintons. You have bought into the lies that followed them throughout Bill's presidency and still persist to this day. I would estimate that 90% of the stories about them are false...straight out of fairyland.

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The path is different because in the sixties state tuitions were low. Instead of talking about forgiving student loans, the emphasis should be more federal dollars in state grants to lower tuition. Sorry, I do know people who still do it the old fashioned way. Both my kids got scholarships and worked with only a little help from us. They did get student loans for my daughter's law school, but that was 30k as she worked all during college and law school. Sorry, appealing to rich people to give them a tax break, or appealing to young people to forgive their student loans is BS. We need folks who can set bipartisan budgets which improve our investments in education, training, and jobs. I personally know that lawyer with the 200k loan, and she lived for seven years on loans without working a day of her life, and now with a 70k a year job she cannot pay back those loans without being an indentured servant for the next 30 years. It is not forgiving student loans, but reducing the pipeline of student loans with a bifurcation of all loans......some with low interest. some with ordinary rates which can be discharged in bankruptcy.

I think the biggest problem facing America is the hysteria of the left and the right. WE NEED MIDDLE.

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2seaoat wrote:I am a Republican.  I think forgiving student loans is stupid.  I have many answers for student loans.  Limit Student loans to 15k a year with low interest loans.   After the first 15k let a student get student loans which can be discharged in Bankruptcy and do not have low interest rates.   I paid every dime of my education by working as my mother was widowed when I was 10.  I walked in my Freshman year in college and paid all my room and board for the year, and tuition with one check which I earned.  I paid the second year, and graduated with a BA in 2.5 years owing not one dime to anybody.  My daughter who is in the SA office has a fellow young attorney who has 200k in student loans as it financed her lifestyle for seven years while getting her ba and law degree.   I have zero sympathy for these folks.   You go to a junior college, or like I did after I graduated early, I worked for nine months to pay for my graduate school, and post graduate studies.  

I cleaned bathrooms, read water meters, bartended, worked as a machinist, worked in a warehouse, dishwashing, landscaped, and worked on automobile car lots all through high school to pay for my college, and I learned just as much working and saving as I did in the classroom.   Fuzzy thinking gets monsters like President Trump who just like Bernie want to GIVE something away to his voters.   Total BS.  Bernie voters who wanted something for nothing put Trump in office as wealthy people are now getting something for nothing.......I want folks elected who ask what will you do for this country, not looking to get something for nothing.

Get real. Back when you went to college it was possible to pay your way with part time jobs. Do have any idea what it costs today for a full term of college education? You would have to work at MacDonald's for ten years to pay one term.

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2seaoat wrote:The path is different because in the sixties state tuitions were low.   Instead of talking about forgiving student loans, the emphasis should be more federal dollars in state grants to lower tuition.   Sorry, I do know people who still do it the old fashioned way.   Both my kids got scholarships and worked with only a little help from us.  They did get student loans for my daughter's law school, but that was 30k as she worked all during college and law school.   Sorry, appealing to rich people to give them a tax break, or appealing to young people to forgive their student loans is BS.   We need folks who can set bipartisan budgets which improve our investments in education, training, and jobs.   I personally know that lawyer with the 200k loan, and she lived for seven years on loans without working a day of her life, and now with a 70k a year job she cannot pay back those loans without being an indentured servant for the next 30 years.   It is not forgiving student loans, but reducing the pipeline of student loans with a bifurcation of all loans......some with low interest.   some with ordinary rates which can be discharged in bankruptcy.

I think the biggest problem facing America is the hysteria of the left and the right.   WE NEED MIDDLE.

There is no middle. That is a mirage. I am NOT hysterical; I am probably the most pragmatic person you know. I know how to turn lemons into lemonade. This "president" has sucked the air out of the room...sucked the hope out of the very people who voted for him, and sadly, they don't even know it yet. He's toxic to our country, and he needs to go NOW.

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The same hysteria was directed at President Obama manipulated by Fox news, while MSNBC manipulates the Trump frenzy. All or nothing. Hysteria. Well the Russians were interfering with our election and President Obama could have done something, but bipartisan analysis agrees that he choked and the election could have changed with a much more specific and public approach to the Russian hacking.

So now every night MSNBC fires up the base on how stupid and lying President Trump is about the Russians, and an intelligent good President like President Obama chokes and allows this whole thing to slip under the public radar.

Enough with the hysteria. I know what a college education costs today, and it starts with two years at a community college with part time jobs, and then going to a state school near where you live so room and board can be absorbed by your parents. This idea that America needs a 100k philosophy instructors is insanity. I saw a family I know cosign non dischargeable student loans for their kid to get a private education at Bradley University where they went bankrupt and the college graduate lived in their basement for five years working odd jobs while they were destroyed. No, I call BS on Bernie. Forgiving student loans was dead from the git go. Tell me how you are going to fund block grants to states for lowering tuition, and I will listen, but that is a bipartisan approach which would restrict more philosophers for vocational talents which may involve an IT degree and the skills to build a database. All these attacks on Trump, a man I despise, are a smoke screen for the real problem in America......a left who has lost its way, and is more concerned with who uses the bathroom than where our kids will work, and how our communities will survive in a world market.

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Floridatexan wrote:Hillary Clinton tried to pass health care for all in 1993.  She was vilified for it, not only by the opponents of her bill, but for stepping outside the boundaries of her duties as First Lady.  I am so sick of hearing from people who should know better, about the "corruption" of the Clintons.  You have bought into the lies that followed them throughout Bill's presidency and still persist to this day.  I would estimate that 90% of the stories about them are false...straight out of fairyland.  

Get your head out of the sand. Why do you suppose Hillary wouldn't release transcripts of her Wall Street speeches? Because she told them they were at the center of one of the worst financial crimes in the country's history and should all be locked up?

Do you have any idea how much damage the repeal of Glass-Steagall caused? And yet you make allowances for it. If Clinton had a bill to repeal the 13th amendment outlawing slavery, would he have signed that because he was under political pressure? If the Gramm-Leach was veto-proof as you say, he still could have vetoed it and let the Republicans own it.

What you're saying is the man and his wife have no beliefs they're not willing to compromise in the name of political expediency.

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2seaoat wrote:
    Forgiving student loans was dead from the git go.   Tell me how you are going to fund block grants to states for lowering tuition, and I will listen, but that is a bipartisan approach which would restrict more philosophers for vocational talents which may involve an IT degree and the skills to build a database.  

Forgiving student loans was an entirely practical idea and could have been easily accomplished.

Do you realize that at the beginning of the foreclosure crisis, the Boston Fed proposed a much cheaper solution than bailing out the banks but it was rejected by the government?

I dare you to read this article. Remember that the Treasury Secretary was Hank Paulson, a former Chairman of Goldman.

The US government saved the "too big to fail" banks in 2008. The reason? People were unable to pay their mortgages causing the banks billions in losses. The US Government authorized $700 billion to save the banks. The Federal Reserve Bank also gave them short-term loans that were even larger.

According to a report of the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston, there was another way. Why not save the people who were at risk? If the people were helped, they would be able to pay their mortgages, the banks would not have needed to be rescued and the financial crisis would have been considerably less severe. The cost? They calculated up to $50 Billion dollars overall - less than 10% of what was approved for banks.


http://necsi.edu/news/2011/bailouts.html

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del.capslock wrote:
2seaoat wrote:
    Forgiving student loans was dead from the git go.   Tell me how you are going to fund block grants to states for lowering tuition, and I will listen, but that is a bipartisan approach which would restrict more philosophers for vocational talents which may involve an IT degree and the skills to build a database.  

Forgiving student loans was an entirely practical idea and could have been easily accomplished.

Do you realize that at the beginning of the foreclosure crisis, the Boston Fed proposed a much cheaper solution than bailing out the banks but it was rejected by the government?

I dare you to read this article. Remember that the Treasury Secretary was Hank Paulson, a former Chairman of Goldman.

The US government saved the "too big to fail" banks in 2008. The reason? People were unable to pay their mortgages causing the banks billions in losses. The US Government authorized $700 billion to save the banks. The Federal Reserve Bank also gave them short-term loans that were even larger.

According to a report of the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston, there was another way. Why not save the people who were at risk? If the people were helped, they would be able to pay their mortgages, the banks would not have needed to be rescued and the financial crisis would have been considerably less severe. The cost? They calculated up to $50 Billion dollars overall - less than 10% of what was approved for banks.


http://necsi.edu/news/2011/bailouts.html

Seaoat actually made that argument repeatedly at the time. And I concur...there was no need to "rescue" the banks and the insurance companies. There was a strong argument for rescuing the people who were under water and suffering. It was a coup against the people.

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