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Tragedy of Naval ship's collision

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1 Tragedy of Naval ship's collision on 6/18/2017, 3:38 pm

A kid get's recruited by a slick Navy commercial with orange balls all over the globe.  They are thankful for an opportunity to train and see the world.  They are in the peaceful waters of Japan, and they go to bed.   There is a tragic collision and the loss of many lives as sailors drown.

Almost 75 years ago the USS Missouri was sitting in a Japanese port as the peace treaty was signed.  It was a highly successful conclusion of a war, and an even better peace.   However, beyond the obvious tragedy of innocents losing their lives in this accident, is the tragedy of America not scaling back our military to historical peace time expenditures and personnel.

It is time to say enough.   We need significant military realignment and shrinkage in both expenditures and personnel.   It has to stop.  We need a clear path to reduction and transition for nations like Japan to develop their own navies and their own self protection.  Those kids who drown were bedazzled by orange balls and economic opportunity.   I would rather those kids were working on a cnc machine in Topeka building productive things which expand our GDP rather than throwing more money down the rabbit hole of military spending.  Why do we need to put almost fifty thousand Americans in Korea and Japan in harm's way when the very nations we are defending have enormous growth in their GDP which could over the next decade have expansion of their defense as we retract.  We need to focus on the real tragedy of this event or we are doomed to repeat the same.

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2seaoat wrote:A kid get's recruited by a slick Navy commercial with orange balls all over the globe.  They are thankful for an opportunity to train and see the world.  They are in the peaceful waters of Japan, and they go to bed.   There is a tragic collision and the loss of many lives as sailors drown.

Almost 75 years ago the USS Missouri was sitting in a Japanese port as the peace treaty was signed.  It was a highly successful conclusion of a war, and an even better peace.   However, beyond the obvious tragedy of innocents losing their lives in this accident, is the tragedy of America not scaling back our military to historical peace time expenditures and personnel.

It is time to say enough.   We need significant military realignment and shrinkage in both expenditures and personnel.   It has to stop.  We need a clear path to reduction and transition for nations like Japan to develop their own navies and their own self protection.  Those kids who drown were bedazzled by orange balls and economic opportunity.   I would rather those kids were working on a cnc machine in Topeka building productive things which expand our GDP rather than throwing more money down the rabbit hole of military spending.  Why do we need to put almost fifty thousand Americans in Korea and Japan in harm's way when the very nations we are defending have enormous growth in their GDP which could over the next decade have expansion of their defense as we retract.  We need to focus on the real tragedy of this event or we are doomed to repeat the same.

Perhaps you remember the unpleasantness that occurred all over the world in the middle of the last century.

Nothing even remotely similar has happened in the intervening 7 decades.

Ask yourself why? Could it be that the Pax Americana has worked?

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That argument is valid, but at what price? That argument is valid, but at what number and level of military assets? What is not valid is MIC making obscene profits and America going further in debt as 17 trillion of wealth was stolen from Americans because in a large part using these military assets to fight ideas.....not nation state threats. A war on terrorism is not properly a military response, but a criminal justice response. It is time to have real discussions about across the board reductions in the American military empire.

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2seaoat wrote:That argument is valid, but at what price?   That argument is valid, but at what number and level of military assets?   What is not valid is MIC making obscene profits and America going further in debt as 17 trillion of wealth was stolen from Americans because in a large part using these military assets to fight ideas.....not nation state threats.  A war on terrorism is not properly a military response, but a criminal justice response.  It is time to have real discussions about across the board reductions in the American military empire.

The wealth is not "stolen" from the American people. It is legally spent by our elected representatives. It all goes back into the economy.

Corporate thieves steal a bunch of it but so what? They end up spending it on luxury goods so everyone knows how rich they are. Hang a few of those fuckers and maybe things would change.

The problem is not government spending but with corporate capitalism and malignant greed. How you gonna fix that?

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Increasing statism (progressivism) until totalitarianism.

Nice work.

You'll eventually get your way... because no one will know anything else in a few more generations.

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6 Re: Tragedy of Naval ship's collision on 6/18/2017, 10:28 pm

PkrBum wrote:Increasing statism (progressivism) until totalitarianism.

Nice work.

You'll eventually get your way... because no one will know anything else in a few more generations.

Worried about our precious bodily fluids, are we?


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7 Re: Tragedy of Naval ship's collision on 6/18/2017, 11:35 pm

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del.capslock wrote:
2seaoat wrote:A kid get's recruited by a slick Navy commercial with orange balls all over the globe.  They are thankful for an opportunity to train and see the world.  They are in the peaceful waters of Japan, and they go to bed.   There is a tragic collision and the loss of many lives as sailors drown.

Almost 75 years ago the USS Missouri was sitting in a Japanese port as the peace treaty was signed.  It was a highly successful conclusion of a war, and an even better peace.   However, beyond the obvious tragedy of innocents losing their lives in this accident, is the tragedy of America not scaling back our military to historical peace time expenditures and personnel.

It is time to say enough.   We need significant military realignment and shrinkage in both expenditures and personnel.   It has to stop.  We need a clear path to reduction and transition for nations like Japan to develop their own navies and their own self protection.  Those kids who drown were bedazzled by orange balls and economic opportunity.   I would rather those kids were working on a cnc machine in Topeka building productive things which expand our GDP rather than throwing more money down the rabbit hole of military spending.  Why do we need to put almost fifty thousand Americans in Korea and Japan in harm's way when the very nations we are defending have enormous growth in their GDP which could over the next decade have expansion of their defense as we retract.  We need to focus on the real tragedy of this event or we are doomed to repeat the same.

Perhaps you remember the unpleasantness that occurred all over the world in the middle of the last century.

Nothing even remotely similar has happened in the intervening 7 decades.

Ask yourself why? Could it be that the Pax Americana has worked?

He hates all
Things military....

8 Re: Tragedy of Naval ship's collision on 6/19/2017, 12:38 am

Pacedog Original Gangsta wrote:
del.capslock wrote:
2seaoat wrote:A kid get's recruited by a slick Navy commercial with orange balls all over the globe.  They are thankful for an opportunity to train and see the world.  They are in the peaceful waters of Japan, and they go to bed.   There is a tragic collision and the loss of many lives as sailors drown.

Almost 75 years ago the USS Missouri was sitting in a Japanese port as the peace treaty was signed.  It was a highly successful conclusion of a war, and an even better peace.   However, beyond the obvious tragedy of innocents losing their lives in this accident, is the tragedy of America not scaling back our military to historical peace time expenditures and personnel.

It is time to say enough.   We need significant military realignment and shrinkage in both expenditures and personnel.   It has to stop.  We need a clear path to reduction and transition for nations like Japan to develop their own navies and their own self protection.  Those kids who drown were bedazzled by orange balls and economic opportunity.   I would rather those kids were working on a cnc machine in Topeka building productive things which expand our GDP rather than throwing more money down the rabbit hole of military spending.  Why do we need to put almost fifty thousand Americans in Korea and Japan in harm's way when the very nations we are defending have enormous growth in their GDP which could over the next decade have expansion of their defense as we retract.  We need to focus on the real tragedy of this event or we are doomed to repeat the same.

Perhaps you remember the unpleasantness that occurred all over the world in the middle of the last century.

Nothing even remotely similar has happened in the intervening 7 decades.

Ask yourself why? Could it be that the Pax Americana has worked?

He hates all
Things military....

Bullshit! Prove it with quotes and citations, you dumb shit!

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9 Re: Tragedy of Naval ship's collision on 6/19/2017, 12:46 am

del.capslock wrote:
Pacedog Original Gangsta wrote:
He hates all Things military....

Bullshit! Prove it with quotes and citations, you dumb shit!

Actually, del, I think Pace is pretty close to absolutely correct on this, but you'd have to have been around on this board for a lot longer to fully realize it.

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10 Re: Tragedy of Naval ship's collision on 6/19/2017, 6:30 am

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I'd like to know why the on deck watches didn't see the freighter. What were they doing?

11 Re: Tragedy of Naval ship's collision on 6/19/2017, 7:17 am

Pacedog Original Gangsta wrote:I'd like to know why the on deck watches didn't see the freighter. What were they doing?

You're sitting at a computer hooked to the greatest source of information in the history of civilization. Do some research, you stupid shit!

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12 Re: Tragedy of Naval ship's collision on 6/19/2017, 11:01 am


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/16/us-navy-destroyer-collides-ship-japan


*********

The tragedy is the loss of these sailors.

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13 Re: Tragedy of Naval ship's collision on 6/19/2017, 11:20 am

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Floridatexan wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/16/us-navy-destroyer-collides-ship-japan


*********

The tragedy is the loss of these sailors.  

Exactly.

14 Re: Tragedy of Naval ship's collision on 6/19/2017, 11:28 am

That article is good, thanks, and The Guardian is a reliable source--no paywall!--but it still doesn't explain what happened, how an ultra-modern destroyer managed to get creamed by a ship three times it's size. I bet Trump is going to blame it on Obama and the Navy is going to squeal "budget"!

I can just hear the Republican ad's in 2018 blaming it on Democrats.

Remember what the Navy tried to do to that poor sailor when the turret on the Iowa blew up? They'll find some low-ranking scapegoat.

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15 Re: Tragedy of Naval ship's collision on 6/19/2017, 11:39 am

2seaoat wrote:A kid get's recruited by a slick Navy commercial with orange balls all over the globe.  They are thankful for an opportunity to train and see the world.  They are in the peaceful waters of Japan, and they go to bed.   There is a tragic collision and the loss of many lives as sailors drown.

Almost 75 years ago the USS Missouri was sitting in a Japanese port as the peace treaty was signed.  It was a highly successful conclusion of a war, and an even better peace.   However, beyond the obvious tragedy of innocents losing their lives in this accident, is the tragedy of America not scaling back our military to historical peace time expenditures and personnel.

It is time to say enough.   We need significant military realignment and shrinkage in both expenditures and personnel.   It has to stop.  We need a clear path to reduction and transition for nations like Japan to develop their own navies and their own self protection.  Those kids who drown were bedazzled by orange balls and economic opportunity.   I would rather those kids were working on a cnc machine in Topeka building productive things which expand our GDP rather than throwing more money down the rabbit hole of military spending.  Why do we need to put almost fifty thousand Americans in Korea and Japan in harm's way when the very nations we are defending have enormous growth in their GDP which could over the next decade have expansion of their defense as we retract.  We need to focus on the real tragedy of this event or we are doomed to repeat the same.

Nothing like taking the narrow view. You think the Military is a waste - and some things POLITICIANS make the military do and buy is most certainly a waste. However, I realize you have never been in the military so don't really understand the many benefits to those who have served. Most young people who join the military are unskilled and unable to find a decent job so they join, learn a skill, discipline, and a work-ethic with a foundation in team work. They make decent money and spend same in the local economy - a small percentage is based overseas but that's just budget dust. Then most get out after their initial obligation and join the work force as productive participants.

If you want to whine about something ask yourself why welfare recipients aren't required to work.

Regarding the collision itself, more than likely it was human error on one or both ships crews part. I've been out there on Navy ships all over the world and it's a difficult profession at night in congested waters to determine what everyone is doing and IF they are doing what they are supposed to according to the "Rules of the Road". Looking at the photos my GUESS is it was the Fitzgeralds fault.

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16 Re: Tragedy of Naval ship's collision on 6/19/2017, 11:55 am

gatorfan wrote: Most young people who join the military are unskilled and unable to find a decent job so they join, learn a skill, discipline, and a work-ethic with a foundation in team work.

Sounds like social engineering to me. Is that what you're touting?

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17 Re: Tragedy of Naval ship's collision on 6/19/2017, 12:06 pm

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del.capslock wrote:
gatorfan wrote: Most young people who join the military are unskilled and unable to find a decent job so they join, learn a skill, discipline, and a work-ethic with a foundation in team work.

Sounds like social engineering to me. Is that what you're touting?


The military operates differently than the civilian world. You don't challenge authority. You obey instantly. You fill your role and advance or you get the boot.

18 Re: Tragedy of Naval ship's collision on 6/19/2017, 3:16 pm

I do not want to understand the military any more than our founding fathers did not want a standing army wanted to understand the military. Throughout history the military has been the delivery system of innocent civilian deaths. America has been an noble experiment, but IKE warned us what was going to happen, and in my life time I have seen the military become a permanent cancer on America, and now people argue it has vocational value. It does not. Those trillions spent on capital equipment and infrastructure have economic multipliers which grow GDP and give young people opportunity.

Only a naive fool would think no military is necessary, but a wise man would argue to find the least noxious amount of military necessary to give a nation defense. We want none of that as we have created huge delivery systems of wasted capital investment to bring war to far reaches of the world for the simple reason it allows some in our society to get wealthy off the American taxpayer.

I am not a wild eyed liberal. I am a fiscal conservative who believes that we have lost our fricking minds to need a 10-1 advantage in military defense when historically a 3-1 advantage usually assured success. It is the failure of anybody to have the courage to say enough. I do not want kids having no job options because the Military is sucking all the capital out of our system, and a few get wealthy why we kill kids in Syria. If I got drafted, I would have gone, but I started working at 14 and had saved enough to pay my room, board and tuition at a state school my freshman year for almost two years of college working 60 hours in the summer and working after school, sat, and sundays on Automobile dealers while in school. No, I made my own opportunity because my father died at 10, and my mother and brother needed my social security check to pay the mortgage. No, I get opportunity, but exporting war is not economic opportunity for anyone.....is is a huge sucking sound as our economy is handcuffed by military spending.

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19 Re: Tragedy of Naval ship's collision on 6/19/2017, 3:31 pm

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Warped ^

20 Re: Tragedy of Naval ship's collision on 6/19/2017, 5:16 pm

Hmmmmm wrote:Warped ^

Perfectly straight, plumb and square.

The warpage you're seeing is the result of your own distorted mental processes.

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21 Re: Tragedy of Naval ship's collision on 6/19/2017, 5:38 pm

2seaoat wrote:I do not want to understand the military any more than our founding fathers did not want a standing army wanted to understand the military.  Throughout history the military has been the delivery system of innocent civilian deaths.  America has been an noble experiment, but IKE warned us what was going to happen, and in my life time I have seen the military become a permanent cancer on America, and now people argue it has vocational value.  It does not.  Those trillions spent on capital equipment and infrastructure have economic multipliers which grow GDP and give young people opportunity.  

Only a naive fool would think no military is necessary, but a wise man would argue to find the least noxious amount of military necessary to give a nation defense.   We want none of that as we have created huge delivery systems of wasted capital investment to bring war to far reaches of the world for the simple reason it allows some in our society to get wealthy off the American taxpayer.

I am not a wild eyed liberal.  I am a fiscal conservative who believes that we have lost our fricking minds to need a 10-1 advantage in military defense when historically a 3-1 advantage usually assured success.   It is the failure of anybody to have the courage to say enough.   I do not want kids having no job options because the Military is sucking all the capital out of our system, and a few get wealthy why we kill kids in Syria.  If I got drafted, I would have gone, but I started working at 14 and had saved enough to pay my room, board and tuition at a state school my freshman year for almost two years of college working 60 hours in the summer and working after school, sat, and sundays on Automobile dealers while in school.  No, I made my own opportunity because my father died at 10, and my mother and brother needed my social security check to pay the mortgage.  No, I get opportunity, but exporting war is not economic opportunity for anyone.....is is a huge sucking sound as our economy is handcuffed by military spending.

You're just so wrong on the "sucking the capital out of the system" bullshit. Until you take an honest look at the most current thinking about monetary sovereignty and sector flow analysis, you might as well be trying to get to Mars using Ptolemaic astronomy.

Certainly there is misallocation of resources but there's plenty of money to do both. The problem is not lack of money and to say it is, is to buy the worst fear-mongering elements of every Republican platform since Hoover.

To refuse to even examine the Economic thought coming out of the University of Missouri-Kansas City is to remain willfully ignorant. Stephanie Kelton, a professor there, was on Bernie's staff. She and Randall Wray are the new wave, the Galileos of modern economic thought.

A lot has happened since you took Econ. Adam Smith died, for one thing.

Quit repeating the lie that we can't afford to fix what needs to be fixed. You're aiding and abetting the enemy.

Here, read this:

Since just after World War II, UMKC’s economics department has embraced unorthodox explanations of the economy that often challenge mainstream economics.

Recently, the department has become a leading voice for what advocates call a “modern” explanation of money. If everyone understood it, they say, it would defuse the nation’s rancorous deficit debate.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/business/article68304027.html

Your misapprehension of the current Economic reality is like trying to buy a new car and asking for one with a crank in front.

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22 Re: Tragedy of Naval ship's collision on 6/20/2017, 9:27 pm

Economic growth requires multipliers on economic activity. A destroyer produces nothing, and contrary to what has been argued that the military is a job creator, it is just the opposite. It is a job destroyer. If every bearing factory got a low interest loan on new capital equipment equal to the capital cost of that destroyer, productivity would increase as new bore grinders, screw machines, CNC machines, and material handling equipment. The low cost loans would include a training component to hire people and train those people on the new capital equipment. Twenty years of pumping out bearing more efficiently and with trained and highly skilled employees, versus some folks who work on a destroyer which produces not one damn thing. Some folks think I am anti military. Quite the opposite. I want competent defense systems, and I do not want a rabbit hole where we are pouring capital into weapon delivery systems which basically were the same as 75 years ago. No, we need drastic cuts in America's military. We need massive investments in new strategies which realistically apprise of future threats......not delivery systems for landing on islands in the Pacific, or sitting target carrier groups where a nation with a GDP of Iran could take out all of our carrier groups with tactical nuclear weapons, as if 1940 technology is not making things smaller and delivery systems are not all but invisible with the smaller tactical nuclear weapons, yet we have a navy which is not responsive for the next fifty years concerning real threats to America. Sorry, in 1974 while writing my thesis in graduate school my supervisor of my thesis was presenting in Toronto about the vulnerabilities of our naval forces in the middle east, and how our shipping lanes throughout the world were vulnerable by a navy designed to hang on to a bygone delivery paradigm. Yes, there have been improvements, but the fact remains.......we are wasting trillions, and in the end, it is a nations GDP which dictates military capabilities.

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23 Re: Tragedy of Naval ship's collision on 6/20/2017, 10:25 pm

2seaoat wrote: If every bearing factory got a low interest loan on new capital equipment equal to the capital cost of that destroyer, productivity would increase as new bore grinders, screw machines, CNC machines, and material handling equipment.   The low cost loans would include a training component to hire people and train those people on the new capital equipment.  

Who is going to buy the bearings? Somebody has to buy the bearings or the products produced by the machines the bearings go into. Without demand for bearings, the shop and all the trained workers are as much of a boondoggle as a guided missile destroyer.

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24 Re: Tragedy of Naval ship's collision on 6/21/2017, 12:31 pm

Who is going to buy the bearings? Somebody has to buy the bearings or the products produced by the machines the bearings go into. Without demand for bearings, the shop and all the trained workers are as much of a boondoggle as a guided missile destroyer.


You parrot economic concepts and you cut and paste, but you lack economic education and understanding of simple economic concepts. There is a worldwide demand for bearings. America produces bearings which if they are not price competitive, they will lose a market share. Those bearing plants are paying taxes which do nothing to improve their productivity or improve their market share and increased capacity and employment.

Germany, Japan, and Korea do not have that same burden supporting a out of proportion defense budget, rather they recognize that their long term defensive capability is tied to growth in their GDP, and to add insult to injury they compete in the world bearing market under the expensive and ineffective umbrella of the American military empire. No, cut the military budget, and invest in the private sector which recaptures some of the world market and creates private sector jobs rather than more teat suckers who had no options.
Your analysis is like Donald Trump's coal policy where there are only 50k coal miners left, while JC Penny employs 125k people, and no fool is arguing that saving JC Penny is critical to America, or that massive investments in the Military are wise capital investments, or wise vocational training for a competitive American economy.

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25 Re: Tragedy of Naval ship's collision on 6/21/2017, 1:04 pm

2seaoat wrote:Who is going to buy the bearings? Somebody has to buy the bearings or the products produced by the machines the bearings go into. Without demand for bearings, the shop and all the trained workers are as much of a boondoggle as a guided missile destroyer.


You parrot economic concepts and you cut and paste, but you lack economic education and understanding of simple economic concepts.   There is a worldwide demand for bearings.  America produces bearings which if they are not price competitive, they will lose a market share.   Those bearing plants are paying taxes which do nothing to improve their productivity or improve their market share and increased capacity and employment.

Germany, Japan, and Korea do not have that same burden supporting a out of proportion defense budget, rather they recognize that their long term defensive capability is tied to growth in their GDP, and to add insult to injury they compete in the world bearing market under the expensive and ineffective umbrella of the American military empire.   No, cut the military budget, and invest in the private sector which recaptures some of the world market and creates private sector jobs rather than more teat suckers who had no options.
Your analysis is like Donald Trump's coal policy where there are only 50k coal miners left, while JC Penny employs 125k people, and no fool is arguing that saving JC Penny is critical to America, or that massive investments in the Military are wise capital investments, or wise vocational training for a competitive American economy.

Your Ptolemaic notions about economics are so simplistic and other-worldly that I'm beginning to wonder about your ability think deeply about things.

Continuing with your example of bearings--which I presume is metaphorical and used as an example of a larger economic idea--there has to be a demand for bearings, either in an end-use consumer good like a car or a blender or in a machine that contributes to the production of such goods e.g. an industrial stamping machine or an assembly line.

If no one buys the stuff bearings are used to make, demand collapses. This is what happens in a recession: demand for goods slows or stops. What happens to the bearing factory and its well-trained workforce then?

DEMAND PRECEDES SUPPLY! Despite the lunatic notions promulgated by reactionary supply-siders like yourself.

People employed in defense industries such as aircraft or ship get paid money and they use that money to buy stuff, stuff that either requires bearings to work or stuff that is made with processes that require bearings.

NO DEMAND, NO SUPPLY!


DUH!

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