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People Want MORE Government

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1 People Want MORE Government on 4/26/2017, 9:05 am



Notably, the new survey found a historically high share of Americans—some 57%—believe the government should do more to solve problems and help people, compared with 39% who said the government is doing too many things better left to business and individuals. Democrats have long said government should do more to help people, but the new survey found other groups agreeing in larger numbers. Some 59% of independents said government should do more, up from 38% in late 2010, when the tea-party movement was growing. The percentage of Republicans calling for more government action grew to 28%, up 11 points.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/disapproval-of-president-donald-trump-grows-in-latest-wsj-nbc-news-poll-1492952400

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2 Re: People Want MORE Government on 4/26/2017, 9:37 am

Useful idiots

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3 Re: People Want MORE Government on 4/26/2017, 9:46 am

PkrBum wrote:Useful idiots

Great, you just called 57% of the American public "useful idiots".

Well, at least they're useful, which is more than anyone can say about you.

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4 Re: People Want MORE Government on 4/26/2017, 11:14 am

Sal wrote:

Notably, the new survey found a historically high share of Americans—some 57%—believe the government should do more to solve problems and help people, compared with 39% who said the government is doing too many things better left to business and individuals. Democrats have long said government should do more to help people, but the new survey found other groups agreeing in larger numbers. Some 59% of independents said government should do more, up from 38% in late 2010, when the tea-party movement was growing. The percentage of Republicans calling for more government action grew to 28%, up 11 points.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/disapproval-of-president-donald-trump-grows-in-latest-wsj-nbc-news-poll-1492952400

Love the graph, think it is accurate. Given that how do we square this with our current political situation? WH and congress all in GOP hands. It is no secret whatsoever that the Dems, generally speaking are in the camp of thinking government should be involved with helping people and making their lives better while GOPer's think business freedom is the way to go.  Even for the most casual observer of party politics this has been evident for many decades.

Government's roll in our daily lives is not a small item of philosophy. So, really (?) masses of people are either duped by the GOP line; overlook the main message of the Democratic Party(?) or are hoping to become millionaires via the GOP business route(?).

How do we explain our current situation?

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5 Re: People Want MORE Government on 4/26/2017, 11:51 am

othershoe1030 wrote:
How do we explain our current situation?

Too many people are deplorably ignorant ...

... or ignorantly deplorable.

Can't decide which it is.

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6 Re: People Want MORE Government on 4/26/2017, 12:22 pm

I don't want anymore govt, in fact less. You have to pay attention to Trump the guy who wants to cut he is slowly putting together more departments, Opiate commission also a substance abuse commission. WTF why two separate commission's basically for the same thing.

Cut corporate taxes, even though it's 35% some don't pay any and the average for the rest is about 15% after deduction's. With all these deduction's and lack of taxes seems these corps could have been hiring all along. If he gets his corporate tax cut to 15% and keeps all the deductions, hell these corps won't be paying anything. This would add somewhere in the neighborhood of 4 trillion more to the deficit we've been building up for the past 16 years.

Other than corporate tax cuts and war mongering not much sounds like Trump is a republican, he only ran under that banner. Not a dem either, I just can't figure what he is other than a fucking dunce.

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7 Re: People Want MORE Government on 4/26/2017, 12:23 pm

Well my post for the month lol. See you all later.

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8 Re: People Want MORE Government on 4/26/2017, 12:25 pm

People are brainwashed. Fox News has been lying to the public for 20 years...Limbaugh, et al for much longer. It is natural for people to want a scapegoat when things don't go their way; George W Bush (and his father) knew this...and Trump knows this...meanwhile, the pie has been stolen, and Trump is in the process of divvying it up among his useless "peers".

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9 Re: People Want MORE Government on 4/26/2017, 12:26 pm

dumpcare wrote:I don't want anymore govt, in fact less. You have to pay attention to Trump the guy who wants to cut he is slowly putting together more departments, Opiate commission also a substance abuse commission. WTF why two separate commission's basically for the same thing.

Cut corporate taxes, even though it's 35% some don't pay any and the average for the rest is about 15% after deduction's. With all these deduction's and lack of taxes seems these corps could have been hiring all along. If he gets his corporate tax cut to 15% and keeps all the deductions, hell these corps won't be paying anything. This would add somewhere in the neighborhood of 4 trillion more to the deficit we've been building up for the past 16 years.

Other than corporate tax cuts and war mongering not much sounds like Trump is a republican, he only ran under that banner. Not a dem either, I just can't figure what he is other than a fucking dunce.

Try "kleptocrat".

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10 Re: People Want MORE Government on 4/26/2017, 1:17 pm

Corp tax is just a circuitous consumption tax for useful idiots.

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11 Re: People Want MORE Government on 4/26/2017, 1:50 pm

PkrBum wrote: Corp tax is just a circuitous consumption tax for useful idiots.

So what? So are excise and sales taxes.

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12 Re: People Want MORE Government on 4/26/2017, 2:15 pm

dumpcare wrote:I don't want anymore govt, in fact less. You have to pay attention to Trump the guy who wants to cut he is slowly putting together more departments, Opiate commission also a substance abuse commission. WTF why two separate commission's basically for the same thing.

Cut corporate taxes, even though it's 35% some don't pay any and the average for the rest is about 15% after deduction's. With all these deduction's and lack of taxes seems these corps could have been hiring all along. If he gets his corporate tax cut to 15% and keeps all the deductions, hell these corps won't be paying anything. This would add somewhere in the neighborhood of 4 trillion more to the deficit we've been building up for the past 16 years.

Other than corporate tax cuts and war mongering not much sounds like Trump is a republican, he only ran under that banner. Not a dem either, I just can't figure what he is other than a fucking dunce.

From what I can glean from the tax reform proposal it looks as if he is out to help himself, reduce his own taxes and ignore the deficit. He is in business for himself and is trying to run the government as if it were an entity with which he does business. He cares nothing for working poor or middle class families.

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13 Re: People Want MORE Government on 4/26/2017, 2:29 pm

othershoe1030 wrote: He cares nothing for working poor or middle class families.





Exactly, just like all corporations.

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14 Re: People Want MORE Government on 4/26/2017, 3:32 pm

othershoe1030 wrote:
dumpcare wrote:

This would add somewhere in the neighborhood of 4 trillion more to the deficit we've been building up for the past 16 years.


From what I can glean from the tax reform proposal it looks as if he is out to help himself, reduce his own taxes and ignore the deficit. He is in business for himself and is trying to run the government as if it were an entity with which he does business. He cares nothing for working poor or middle class families.

The Federal deficit and accumulated National debt are private savings. The Federal government finances the deficit by issuing Treasury bonds and T-bills which are equivalent to any other private savings vehicle.

Deficits are a Republican scare tactic. The Federal government is not a household that has to balance it's accounts. IT IS THE ONLY SOURCE OF US DOLLARS AND CAN CREATE AS MANY AS IT NEEDS. IT CAN NEVER GO BANKRUPT.

N.B. The above is NOT true for State and Local debt, only for the Federal government.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/11/9/1159914/-Why-deficit-s-don-t-matter-the-reality-of-government-finance

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15 Re: People Want MORE Government on 4/26/2017, 3:42 pm

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimpowell/2011/11/29/rich-nations-that-went-broke-by-spending-too-much/#16c4be3c2f88

Spending problems began to be evident in the early years of the Roman Empire, and they became huge in the third century C.E. Perhaps as early as the third century B.C.E., Rome began minting a gold coin that came to be known as the aureus. Originally the face value of the coin equaled the market value of gold in it.

Then gangster rulers spent money they didn’t have on grain subsidies, public entertainments, a gigantic bureaucracy and military establishment. These rulers relentlessly raised taxes and debased money, crippling the economy. They tried to pay their bills by debasing the aureus. They issued gold coins that had the same face value but less and less gold. In 81 B.C.E. (when Sulla ruled), the aureus had 10.9 grams of gold, but this declined to 9.09 grams in 50 B.C.E. (Pompeius), 8.18 grams in 46 B.C.E. when Caesar ruled, then 7.80 grams in 15 B.C.E. (Augustus), 7.27 grams in 60 C.E. (Nero), 6.55 grams in 214 C.E. (Caracella), 5.45 grams in 292 C.E. (Diocletian), 4.54 grams in 312 C.E. (Constantine) and 3.29 grams in 367 C.E. (Valentinian).

There was inflation: prices increased as merchants demanded more coins for their goods (a higher total face value), to assure that their payment in gold would be the same as before. Rome’s silver coin, the denarius, was similarly debased. Monetary chaos, with so many coins circulating that weren’t what they appeared to be, contributed to economic chaos, a major factor in the fall of the Roman Empire.

Chinese rulers introduced paper money sometime after 960 C.E. Evidently they soon discovered they could acquire their favorite luxuries and pay their armies by printing more money, and they did it with gusto. In the late 13th century C.E., the Venetian merchant and chronicler Marco Polo – with little knowledge of China’s past experience -- marveled at the brilliance of the Mongol ruler who “may truly be said to possess the secret of the alchemists.” He persuaded merchants to give him wonderful things, and all he offered in return were stamped pieces of paper made from the bark of mulberry trees. It was a nice racket. Unfortunately, people realized that paper money lost value as prices took off, at which point everyone tried to avoid it. To keep the paper money game going, some rulers decreed the death penalty for malcontents who wouldn’t accept it.

A dynasty’s paper money was wiped out when, as eventually happened, the dynasty was defeated by invaders or rebels. The new rulers issued their own paper money that, like its predecessors, was depreciated and wiped out. Altogether, seven Chinese dynasties issued paper money. Occasionally new paper money was exchanged for old at rates up to 1,000 to 1 (old-to-new). Chinese records show that the money supply soared more than 3,200-fold between 1260 and 1330 C.E. During this period, inflation was a factor in the collapse of the Song and Yuan dynasties. Next came the Ming dynasty that introduced its own paper money, but reportedly it lost 99 percent of its value by 1425. Then the Ch’ing dynasty tried paper money, but it lost all its value in 11 years. The Ch’ing dynasty tried paper money again, but it became worthless in only 8 years. Runaway inflation was a factor in the collapse of Chiang Kai Shek’s struggle against Mao Zedong’s communists in 1949.

England, where industrial prosperity first began to develop, had a series of spendthrift sovereigns. The most reckless of these was probably Henry VIII (ruled1509-1547). This was the royal who married six times. He spent huge sums on his palaces, on his legions of government employees, on the British Navy and on wars against France. Biographer Derek Wilson noted that due to inconvenient tax resistance, “the King’s needs and wants could not be simply furnished by going to the people [for more revenue].”

Henry VIII enjoyed windfall gains from confiscating Catholic Church properties in England, but he found himself in financial trouble again. He resorted to the old trick of issuing coins with less gold or silver content than was indicated on the face of the coins – the “Great Debasement” as it was called. The king was broke. Ironically England’s first bankruptcy law was enacted during his reign, to protect creditors.

The English penny had 1,438 milligrams of silver in 1299 C.E., but this had dwindled to 687 milligrams in 1526, during the reign of Henry VIII. There were just 518 milligrams of silver in 1552 when his successor Edward VI ruled.

Spain was the only nation to extract significant quantities of gold and silver from the New World. During the 16th century, convoys of treasure ships seemed to give Spain a big advantage over its European rivals. But King Philip II (ruled 1554-1598) seems to have spent it all and then some on wars and luxuries like the gigantic El Escorial royal residence, monastery, library and art gallery (altogether with almost 15 miles of corridors). El Escorial was a 21-year “shovel ready” construction project to celebrate a costly Spanish war victory over the French. Philip ended up defaulting on his debts four times – in 1557, 1560, 1575 and 1596.

Royal revenues more than doubled during the four decades of Philip’s reign, but spending increased even faster. Altogether, there were deficits for 28 of 30 years. In 1576, when Philip’s revenue was up more than 50 percent, his debt jumped one‑third. His last bankruptcy occurred during the decade that was the peak of gold and silver shipments to Spain. That’s when Philip was deepest in debt!

The great majority of central banks were established after 1900 to help governments spend money they didn’t have. They became engines of inflation. The largest number of runaway inflations and the worst runaway inflations have occurred since 1900.

Probably the most famous runaway inflation was in Germany, climaxing in 1923. It has been widely blamed on reparations demanded by Germany’s victorious adversaries in World War I, but reparations peaked at11.8 percent of the government’s budget during the runaway inflation.

How, then, to account for it? Before the war, Germany had established a big welfare state, and during the war it expanded dramatically. It wasn’t dismantled after the war. Germany had a financially troubled government-run pension system like our Social Security. The German government provided health insurance for millions of people. There were German government programs for 1.5 million disabled veterans. The German government bailed out municipalities. The government lavished subsidies on the arts. There were government-run theaters and opera houses. Government-owned railroads lost money. Government-run enterprises couldn’t even make money producing margarine and sausages.

This runaway inflation destroyed savings, bankrupted and disillusioned middle class Germans whom Adolf Hitler appealed to as “starving billionaires” – they had billions of paper marks but couldn’t afford a loaf of bread. Hitler emerged as a political figure to reckon with during that runaway inflation.

The current Greek financial crisis is primarily the result of runaway domestic spending. Budget deficits have gone up whether revenues went up or down – and the government took on more and more debt.

Greece has bloated government bureaucracies where unionized employees were accustomed to being paid for 14 months’ work every 12 months. For decades, Greek politicians pacified disgruntled citizens by adding people to the government payroll, and now about 1 out of every 4 Greeks work for the government. In an unsuccessful effort to pay for all the spending, taxes were raised so high that more and more Greeks did business tax-free on the black market. An estimated one‑third of the economy is “off-the-books.” The Greek government put about 6,000 sun-kissed islands up for sale, looking for millionaires and billionaires who might want a very special place to call their own.

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16 Re: People Want MORE Government on 4/26/2017, 3:55 pm

PkrBum wrote:https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimpowell/2011/11/29/rich-nations-that-went-broke-by-spending-too-much/#16c4be3c2f88


This article is absolute bullshit. Japan has been trying to inflate its economy for twenty years. It's running a deficit of 200% of GDP and still hasn't been able pump up the economy.

The example of Greece is phony because Greece is not Monetarily Soveriegn, it's yoked to the Euro.

You ought to read a little more about MMT and Monetary Sovereignty, your ignorance is showing.

Imagine that.

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17 Re: People Want MORE Government on 4/26/2017, 4:09 pm

del.capslock wrote:
PkrBum wrote:https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimpowell/2011/11/29/rich-nations-that-went-broke-by-spending-too-much/#16c4be3c2f88


This article is absolute bullshit. Japan has been trying to inflate its economy for twenty years. It's running a deficit of 200% of GDP and still hasn't been able pump up the economy.

The example of Greece is phony because Greece is not Monetarily Soveriegn, it's yoked to the Euro.

You ought to read a little more about MMT and Monetary Sovereignty, your ignorance is showing.

Imagine that.







The article was written by Jim Powell, a Senior Fellow at the Koch founded Cato Institute.

Imagine that.

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18 Re: People Want MORE Government on 4/26/2017, 4:24 pm

Telstar wrote:


The article was written by Jim Powell, a Senior Fellow at the Koch founded Cato Institute.

Imagine that.

Yeah, those fuckers would privatize the National Parks and the Interstate Highway System if they could. Hell, they'd privatize the IRS and shop it out to the same debt collectors that are making student debt such a horror. They're nothing but predators and parasites.

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19 Re: People Want MORE Government on 4/26/2017, 5:06 pm

del.capslock wrote:
Telstar wrote:


The article was written by Jim Powell, a Senior Fellow at the Koch founded Cato Institute.

Imagine that.

Yeah, those fuckers would privatize the National Parks and the Interstate Highway System if they could. Hell, they'd privatize the IRS and shop it out to the same debt collectors that are making student debt such a horror. They're nothing but predators and parasites.





To be fair, many conservatives agree with Jim Powell's book "FDR’s Folly, How Roosevelt and His New Deal Prolonged the Great Depression" (2003)


http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20090101_fdr_prolonged_the_depression_really#14932404844351&action=collapse_widget&id=0&data=

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20 Re: People Want MORE Government on 4/26/2017, 6:04 pm

del.capslock wrote:
othershoe1030 wrote:
dumpcare wrote:

This would add somewhere in the neighborhood of 4 trillion more to the deficit we've been building up for the past 16 years.


From what I can glean from the tax reform proposal it looks as if he is out to help himself, reduce his own taxes and ignore the deficit. He is in business for himself and is trying to run the government as if it were an entity with which he does business. He cares nothing for working poor or middle class families.

The Federal deficit and accumulated National debt are private savings. The Federal government finances the deficit by issuing Treasury bonds and T-bills which are equivalent to any other private savings vehicle.

Deficits are a Republican scare tactic. The Federal government is not a household that has to balance it's accounts. IT IS THE ONLY SOURCE OF US DOLLARS AND CAN CREATE AS MANY AS IT NEEDS. IT CAN NEVER GO BANKRUPT.

N.B. The above is NOT true for State and Local debt, only for the Federal government.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/11/9/1159914/-Why-deficit-s-don-t-matter-the-reality-of-government-finance

ACK! The only reason I threw in the deficit was because the R's are always using it as a way of justifying some new scheme they have come up with to enrich themselves. I don't lose any sleep over the deficit. No one should believe anything these guys have to say on tax reform. What a joke.

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21 Re: People Want MORE Government on 4/26/2017, 6:36 pm

https://reason.com/blog/2017/04/26/trumps-tax-plan-lower-tax-rates-fewer-ta

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22 Re: People Want MORE Government on 4/26/2017, 7:09 pm

PkrBum wrote:https://reason.com/blog/2017/04/26/trumps-tax-plan-lower-tax-rates-fewer-ta

Do you have any thoughts of your own?

Are you incapable of expressing them?

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23 Re: People Want MORE Government on 4/26/2017, 7:43 pm

Telstar wrote:

To be fair, many conservatives agree with Jim Powell's book "FDR’s Folly, How Roosevelt and His New Deal Prolonged the Great Depression" (2003)


http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20090101_fdr_prolonged_the_depression_really#14932404844351&action=collapse_widget&id=0&data=

The biggest argument against the revisionist and wrong idea that FDR prolonged the depression is that once he started massive government spending to create the "Arsenal of Democracy" in preparation for WWII, the economy started to boom and that was followed by the post-war boom which only ended when spending was curtailed in the late '50s.

Any economy needs money to expand. In the US, the government has a monopoly on the creation of money and new money is only created by deficit spending. Recessions always follow attempts to balance the budget.

That's good link, by the way. Here's another link that may be instructive:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/1/8/670505/-

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24 Re: People Want MORE Government on 4/27/2017, 10:51 am

I think people forget that government is not analogous to "helping".

Government is a group of people who decide when it's ok to attack people. That's it.

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25 Re: People Want MORE Government on 4/27/2017, 11:08 am

wolfhouse wrote:I think people forget that government is not analogous to "helping".

Government is a group of people who decide when it's ok to attack people. That's it.




Good governments build bridges. Shitty governments build walls.

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