Tet Offensive, anyone... anyone...

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/22/world/asia/taliban-afghanistan-military-base-soldiers-killed.html

Anyone here remember the Siege of Khe Sanh?

I remember all the names - Tet, Khe Sanh, et al - but no details whatsoever. At that age I was a hopeless ignoramus when it came to world or political affairs, being totally wrapped up in motherhood and work, and dealing with a very unhappy marriage to boot. It really wasn't until I was retired that I found the time to pay attention. (Which is why I shudder when I think of all the similar young ignoramuses [ignorami? lol] now pulling the voting booth levers.)

So you were going to draw some parallels, or what?

RealLindaL wrote:
So you were going to draw some parallels, or what?

Well, yeah, kinda. In January, 1968 the North Vietnamese Army (the NVA) and their South Vietnamese guerrillas, the Viet Cong, launched a country-wide offensive--the Tet offensive--against the South Vietnamese and American forces. Prior to this, the US had been bombing the Ho Chi Minh trail relentlessly, thinking that would so decimate the NVA that they'd give up and go home. HA!

In this case the Taliban just got the hell bombed out of them with that whopper of a bomb in one part of the country and yet they managed to mount a pretty successful attack elsewhere.

It just rings a bell with me.

RealLindaL wrote:I remember all the names - Tet, Khe Sanh, et al - but no details whatsoever.  At that age I was a hopeless ignoramus when it came to world or political affairs, being totally wrapped up in motherhood and work, and dealing with a very unhappy marriage to boot.   It really wasn't until I was retired that I found the time to pay attention.   (Which is why I shudder when I think of all the similar young ignoramuses [ignorami? lol] now pulling the voting booth levers.)

So you were going to draw some parallels, or what?

Of course I remember, from my perspective as well as my ignorance my memories are of Americans being loaded onto choppers in body bags . . . . . a horrible time for me and America!

del.capslock wrote:[In this case the Taliban just got the hell bombed out of them with that whopper of a bomb in one part of the country and yet they managed to mount a pretty successful attack elsewhere.

It just rings a bell with me.

Actually it was ISIS, not the Taliban, that the MOAB targeted, but I can see why the bell rang.

knothead wrote:. . a horrible time for me and America!

That entire war was a shameful, disgraceful, useless and tragic loss of American lives and treasure.  And doesn't THAT ring a bell.

Knot, good to see you.  I figured we might be hearing less and less from you in your new home, so it's always a treat to see your name on a post.  Hope all's well in KY.

RealLindaL wrote:

del.capslock wrote:[In this case the Taliban just got the hell bombed out of them with that whopper of a bomb in one part of the country and yet they managed to mount a pretty successful attack elsewhere.

It just rings a bell with me.

Actually it was ISIS, not the Taliban, that the MOAB targeted, but I can see why the bell rang.

Yes, you're correct.  Now, explain the difference to me, please...   and go slow, I'm a male, remember, with limited grasp of subtlety.

del.capslock wrote:

RealLindaL wrote:Actually it was ISIS, not the Taliban, that the MOAB targeted, but I can see why the bell rang.

Yes, you're correct.  Now, explain the difference to me, please...   and go slow, I'm a male, remember, with limited grasp of subtlety.

I see you're still practicing the old tactic of the best defense's being a good offense. Sarcasm will get you nowhere in a serious discussion. Look, you had the targeted group wrong, that's all. I said I understood why it still rang a bell with you. What else do you want from my life??

del.capslock wrote:

RealLindaL wrote:
So you were going to draw some parallels, or what?

Well, yeah, kinda. In January, 1968 the North Vietnamese Army (the NVA) and their South Vietnamese guerrillas, the Viet Cong, launched a country-wide offensive--the Tet offensive--against the South Vietnamese and American forces. Prior to this, the US had been bombing the Ho Chi Minh trail relentlessly, thinking that would so decimate the NVA that they'd give up and go home. HA!

In this case the Taliban just got the hell bombed out of them with that whopper of a bomb in one part of the country and yet they managed to mount a pretty successful attack elsewhere.

It just rings a bell with me.

The Tet Offensive resulted in a stunning defeat for the NVA and Viet Cong in particular. It was supposed to ignite a general uprising that did not happen. The battle for Khe Sahn could have been a disaster but we had air superiority and lot's of air resupply capability. Still the place was hell on earth for awhile. If that MORON LBJ had turned the U.S. air forces loose on Hanoi and harbors of North Vietnam the war would have turned out much differently. LBJ's rocket scientist number crunchers wrongly assumed if they played whack a mole on the Trail they would force the NV's to the table. Nope.

There is no real comparison to the MOAB dropped on an Afghanistan tunnel system and any other battle elsewhere in the country. The MOAB is just a freaking bomb with limited value but it was the perfect choice in that situation. 11 tons in one spot creates a lot of concentrated pressure, perfect.

I have never figured out why everyone is so exercised over it's use in this situation....one - ONE - B-52 load can weigh over 30 tons so what's the big deal over an 11 ton bomb??????

gatorfan wrote:

The Tet Offensive resulted in a stunning defeat for the NVA and Viet Cong in particular. It was supposed to ignite a general uprising that did not happen. The battle for Khe Sahn could have been a disaster but we had air superiority and lot's of air resupply capability. Still the place was hell on earth for awhile.  If that MORON LBJ had turned the U.S. air forces loose on Hanoi and harbors of North Vietnam the war would have turned out much differently. LBJ's rocket scientist number crunchers wrongly assumed if they played whack a mole on the Trail they would force the NV's to the table. Nope.

This is just typical of the bore-sighted and brain-dead reactionary mindset, unable to view events in a larger context.

Tet went on for a month or more, by the time it was over Westmoreland was out, McNamara quit, Cronkite told the world the truth--that we weren't winning the war and that it was destined to end in stalemate--Nixon started his shenanigans to stop the Paris talks, the American public turned against the war and Johnson essentially quit with his "I shall not seek and will not accept..." speech at the end of March.

We abandoned Khe Sahn in July of '68 after wasting how much blood and treasure?

Tet may have been a military loss but it turned the tide for the North Vietnamese in terms of public opinion and demonstrated for all to see the limits of American power.

Some "stunning defeat", you dumb ass!

del.capslock wrote:

gatorfan wrote:

The Tet Offensive resulted in a stunning defeat for the NVA and Viet Cong in particular. It was supposed to ignite a general uprising that did not happen. The battle for Khe Sahn could have been a disaster but we had air superiority and lot's of air resupply capability. Still the place was hell on earth for awhile.  If that MORON LBJ had turned the U.S. air forces loose on Hanoi and harbors of North Vietnam the war would have turned out much differently. LBJ's rocket scientist number crunchers wrongly assumed if they played whack a mole on the Trail they would force the NV's to the table. Nope.

HAH! HAH! HAH!

MANY MUCH OUT LAUGH LAUGHINGS!

This is just typical of the bore-sighted and brain-dead reactionary mindset, unable to view events in a larger context.

Tet went on for a month or more, by the time it was over Westmoreland was out, McNamara quit, Cronkite told the world the truth--that we weren't winning the war and that it was destined to end in stalemate--Nixon started his shenanigans to stop the Paris talks, the American public turned against the war and Johnson essentially quit with his "I shall not seek and will not accept..." speech at the end of March.

We abandoned Khe Sahn in July of '68 after wasting how much blood and treasure?

Tet may have been a military loss but it turned the tide for the North Vietnamese in terms of public opinion and demonstrated for all to see the limits of American power.

Some "stunning defeat", you dumb ass!

Your knowledge of events is barely wikipedia deep and the meaning behind my use of the term "stunning defeat" is totally lost on you. Poser.

gatorfan wrote:
Your knowledge of events is barely wikipedia deep and the meaning behind my use of the term "stunning defeat" is totally lost on you. Poser.

More moronic reactionary spew, pitiful.

My husband was stationed in Okinawa, but that summer he was in Saigon. I was 18 and ready to start college, but my boyfriend, who had enlisted to avoid being drafted, went AWOL from boot camp and took his own life...that July...and about a month later I wrote an antiwar essay for advanced credit.

Floridatexan wrote:
My husband was stationed in Okinawa, but that summer he was in Saigon.  I was 18 and ready to start college, but my boyfriend, who had enlisted to avoid being drafted, went AWOL from boot camp and took his own life...that July...and about a month later I wrote an antiwar essay for advanced credit.

Oh gosh, FT, so sad. I can't imagine the emotional trauma you must've suffered.

RealLindaL wrote:

Floridatexan wrote:
My husband was stationed in Okinawa, but that summer he was in Saigon.  I was 18 and ready to start college, but my boyfriend, who had enlisted to avoid being drafted, went AWOL from boot camp and took his own life...that July...and about a month later I wrote an antiwar essay for advanced credit.

Oh gosh, FT, so sad.  I can't imagine the emotional trauma you must've suffered.

I wonder how often that happened and we never heard about it. Too bad FT's boyfriend didn't crap his pants instead. At least he would still be alive and maybe even get an invite to the White House by bone spur boy.

gatorfan wrote:

Your knowledge of events is barely wikipedia deep and the meaning behind my use of the term "stunning defeat" is totally lost on you. Poser.

My knowledge is decades deep and driven by both personal loss and personal experience.

"Stunning defeat" is not an ambiguous term. If you want to work some Ministry of Truth magic on it, you're welcome to try. The Tet Offensive turned the tide for the North Vietnamese with the American public who finally found out that the incompetent boob Westmoreland and the twisted soul McNamara had been lying to them and to LBJ for years.

del.capslock wrote:

gatorfan wrote:

Your knowledge of events is barely wikipedia deep and the meaning behind my use of the term "stunning defeat" is totally lost on you. Poser.

My knowledge is decades deep and driven by both personal loss and personal experience.

"Stunning defeat" is not an ambiguous term. If you want to work some Ministry of Truth magic on it, you're welcome to try. The Tet Offensive turned the tide for the North Vietnamese with the American public who finally found out that the incompetent boob Westmoreland and the twisted soul McNamara had been lying to them and to LBJ for years.

I couldn't agree more...and I remember thinking at the time, or shortly thereafter, that the war itself had succeeded in dividing our generation, as nothing else could have.

And then, a couple of years later, my grandfather let me know that he and LBJ were cousins.

Floridatexan wrote:
And then, a couple of years later, my grandfather let me know that he and LBJ were cousins.

Lyndon Baines Johnson is easily the most interesting, complicated and tragic president of the post-war era.

He got the Civil Rights, Voting Rights and Fair Housing Acts ('64, '65 and '68, respectively) passed through sheer legislative mastery. During his term as President, Medicare, Medicaid, Food Stamps and Head Start all began. He appointed Thurgood Marshall to the Supreme Court, essentially creating the so-called Black Seat. He established both the National Endowment for the Arts and the National Endowment for the Humanities. His Great Society program was a blueprint for a just and equitable future for all Americans.

Unfortunately, he bought into the Domino myth of fighting communism in S.E. Asia--the theory that if Vietnam fell, all of S.E. Asia would follow, one country at a time, and it wouldn't end until it consumed everything, all the way to New South Wales. Utter bullshit, of course, but there it was. This theory was proven false when communist Vietnam, after the North took over, invaded communist Cambodia to defeat the Khmer Rouge and was then invaded by communist China in a border dispute over the northern border. Or something. Some Dominos!

Anyway, the Domino Theory was the rankest, purest bullshit--a product of the minds of "The Best and the Brightest", but LBJ got sucked right into it, ergo 'Nam. A complicated and tragic guy.

If you're related to him, you owe it to yourself to read up on him.

del.capslock wrote:

gatorfan wrote:

Your knowledge of events is barely wikipedia deep and the meaning behind my use of the term "stunning defeat" is totally lost on you. Poser.

My knowledge is decades deep and driven by both personal loss and personal experience.

"Stunning defeat" is not an ambiguous term. If you want to work some Ministry of Truth magic on it, you're welcome to try. The Tet Offensive turned the tide for the North Vietnamese with the American public who finally found out that the incompetent boob Westmoreland and the twisted soul McNamara had been lying to them and to LBJ for years.

Coming from a poser like you that's pretty funny.

Let me refresh your obviously demented memory. YOU started a thread about the Tet offensive, a combat action that resulted in the near destruction of the VC and humiliation of involved NVA units. The VC also failed to incite the general population to revolt, another failed mission.....

So now you want to discuss the political ramifications of their losses. That's not what THIS thread is about douche.

Your knowledge of events is barely wikipedia deep and the meaning behind my use of the term "stunning defeat" is totally lost on you. Poser.


Nailed it. Some people have absolutely no knowledge of history. Your summary on the Tet Offensive was dead cinch correct. Now if the discussion was about our involvement in Viet Nam , and the perceived idea of a monolithic communist agenda which ignored nationalistic goals, yes that would be another discussion. Poser, is very perceptive as anybody who is well read and familiar with history would laugh at our poser who cuts and pastes as a replacement for being well read and educated.

gatorfan wrote:

YOU started a thread about the Tet offensive, a combat action that resulted in the near destruction of the VC and humiliation of involved NVA units.

So now you want to discuss the political ramifications of their losses. That's not what THIS thread is about douche.

If I started the thread, then it's about whatever I say it's about, asshole! And I say it's about the political ramifications. So bite me!

I swear, you reactionary twits are incapable of grasping complexity. In war everything has political ramifications. DUH!

You might ask yourself if the offensive was such a stunning defeat, how come Saigon is now Ho Chi Minh City? Again, DUH!

2seaoat wrote:who cuts and pastes as a replacement for being well read and educated.

Find one sentence I've cut and pasted. You're sitting at a computer, go ahead, find one sentence I've cut and pasted. I write my own shit after consulting numerous sources and I never cut and paste.

del.capslock wrote:

Floridatexan wrote:
And then, a couple of years later, my grandfather let me know that he and LBJ were cousins.

Lyndon Baines Johnson is easily the most interesting, complicated and tragic president of the post-war era.

He got the Civil Rights, Voting Rights and Fair Housing Acts ('64, '65 and '68, respectively) passed through sheer legislative mastery. During his term as President, Medicare, Medicaid, Food Stamps and Head Start all began. He appointed Thurgood Marshall to the Supreme Court, essentially creating the so-called Black Seat. He established both the National Endowment for the Arts and the National Endowment for the Humanities. His Great Society program was a blueprint for a just and equitable future for all Americans.

Unfortunately, he bought into the Domino myth of fighting communism in S.E. Asia--the theory that if Vietnam fell, all of S.E. Asia would follow, one country at a time, and it wouldn't end until it consumed everything, all the way to New South Wales. Utter bullshit, of course, but there it was. This theory was proven false when communist Vietnam, after the North took over, invaded communist Cambodia to defeat the Khmer Rouge and was then invaded by communist China in a border dispute over the northern border. Or something. Some Dominos!

Anyway, the Domino Theory was the rankest, purest bullshit--a product of the minds of "The Best and the Brightest", but LBJ got sucked right into it, ergo 'Nam. A complicated and tragic guy.

If you're related to him, you owe it to yourself to read up on him.

I do...and I have read many treatises that blamed him for the death of JFK. I don't buy it, and he wasn't around long enough to defend himself against those allegations. I have a book that reads like a criminal indictment, written and self-published in 1964 by J Evetts Haley, another Texas Democrat who obviously had it in for LBJ.



Most people today don't know this book exists, but it created a firestorm then. And because I grew up in Texas, I heard a lot of the stories...about "ghost votes"...about hunting from helicopters...if you hate LBJ, you'll find plenty of reinforcement in this book.

And I think your analysis is spot on.