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Flynn met with Russians before the election -- Rachel Maddow

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Last night on her show, Maddow said there was evidence now that shows that Flynn spoke with Russians BEFORE the election.

If this is true, here's what Flynn must have said: "You do all you can t help us win, and when we do, we'll lift all the sanctions."

If that's true, and a lot of investigators are running this one down, then Trump is an illegitimate President.

Does anyone know the legal on this? If a President is elected via a corrupted or fixed election, does the President remain in power?

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Wordslinger wrote:Last night on her show, Maddow said there was evidence now that shows that Flynn spoke with Russians BEFORE the election.

If this is true, here's what Flynn must have said:  "You do all you can t help us win, and when we do, we'll lift all the sanctions."

If that's true, and a lot of investigators are running this one down, then Trump is an illegitimate President.

Does anyone know the legal on this?  If a President is elected via a corrupted or fixed election, does the President remain in power?

Maybe one of the talking heads will sort through the possibilities for us? If he's impeached and found guilty and has to leave office then we get Pence. Same party that took part in the rigging. All the while when 45 was yapping about the system being rigged...little did we know!

The plot thickens.

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Any political campaign can talk with another nation's representatives. That does not violate existing statutes unless there is a law which bans all speech with a particular nation in wartime. However, it is the content of that speech which is important. Just like people chanted lock her up about Hillary, they were clueless what constitutes a crime and the need for basically a quid pro quo where a person was transferring classified documents for personal gain. The fruitcakes tried to make the simple gross negligence of an individual a crime, and the media ran with that innuendo which was entirely incorrect with the supreme court decision on the subject. It would have taken Hillary trading classified information for something. It was absurd innuendo and nothing was proved and she will never be prosecuted successfully because we are a nation of laws.

General Flynn had every right to meet with Russians and talk about policy as a private citizen. At the point where he was seeking a quid pro quo for acts or actions which were illegal or an act of treason which undermined this nation, he could be guilty of a crime. To suggest that the meeting with the Russians before the election, or after the election was in and of itself wrong is simply stupid on steroids. If they have tapes, they will be released and there will be an investigation, only if there was an element of quid pro quo, but to simply advise the Russians that there is going to be a new sheriff in town with different policies is not a crime. I am so tired of media stirring up nothing chit while making a nice profit on a non event. I went after fools who attacked SOS Clinton on this type of evidence, and as much as I dislike President Trump, enough is enough.

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I reported the CIA had surveillance of a Trump associate meeting w/ a Russian Parliament member in Europe during the election. I don't doubt for a minute Russia has that dossier on Trump. He has been far too friendly and defensive of this enemy. He is going to try and lift the sanctions but McCain is on to him.

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I'm telling you right now, it's gonna get ugly.

The peasants are gonna eventually figure out they've been snookered, and there is nothing even approaching representative about the government they voted in.

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That's not what he supposedly talked to the Russians about, Oatie. He discussed lifting the sanctions which is very suspicious and condemning if you ask me.

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How is that so different from Obama caught on mic offering missle relief in exchange for space during the 2012 campaign? It not. The reason that we can't control our politicians is because idiots only care when it's the other guy doing it. Yea team..!! We all lose. Let's use one set of standards.

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To talk about lifting sanctions is completely lawful as long as there is no element of quid pro quo, or treason involved. How many years did we have economic sanctions on Cuba. I mean we successfully got Putin's puppet out of the Ukraine and Ukraine is aligning with the west, and Putin had his historic Russian naval port in that nation without his puppet to protect Russian interests. The taking of Crimea was illegal. The backing of Ukrainian rebels in Eastern Ukraine was wrong, as was shooting down a civilian airplane, but the truth is there will have to be dialogue with Russia which is constructive and does not present a threat as President Obama owned Putin as he kept pushing the Russian zone of influence back and supplementing NATO in Russia's backyard. We need realistic diplomacy which starts with talk. Nothing the General did absent proof to the contrary was wrong. I can wait for hearings. I can wait for proof. This smells of dumbo land of lock her up........lock her up........without a shred of legal proof of a crime. We need to stop this silliness where the law and logic are replaced by unfettered hate for a President, Presidential candidate, or agent of the same just because of their political slant.

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Flynn situation is 'fluid,' source says


The situation around embattled national security adviser Michael Flynn remains "fluid" Monday night, according to a source with knowledge.

White House press secretary Sean Spicer issued a statement saying President Donald Trump is "evaluating the situation" around Flynn, who is in hot water after possibly misleading Vice President Mike Pence.
The issue stems from whether Flynn discussed sanctions against Russia with the Russian ambassador before Trump took office and then misled Pence about it. It created a turbulent 72 hours for the White House, leading to questions about Flynn's future after only three weeks.

"The President is evaluating the situation," Spicer's statement said. "He's speaking to the vice president relative to the conversation the vice president had with Gen. Flynn, and also speaking to various other people about what he considers the single most important subject there is: our national security."
The noncommittal statement came shortly after Kellyanne Conway, the counselor to the President, told reporters that Trump has "full confidence" in Flynn.

"Gen. Flynn does enjoy the full confidence of the President," Conway said on MSNBC. She later declined to detail how much the President knew about the issue and when he knew it, deeming those conversation private.


http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/13/politics/michael-flynn-donald-trump-white-house/index.html

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PkrBum wrote:How is that so different from Obama caught on mic offering missle relief in exchange for space during the 2012 campaign? It not. The reason that we can't control our politicians is because idiots only care when it's the other guy doing it. Yea team..!! We all lose. Let's use one set of standards.

Are you totally deaf, dumb and blind?? ASKED AND ANSWERED, by me and others. Obama was the PRESIDENT at the time, GET IT?????????? No, you don't -- and you're starting to sound a lot dumber than I thought you were.

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2seaoat wrote:To talk about lifting sanctions is completely lawful as long as there is no element of quid pro quo, or treason involved.

Broken record, stuck in a groove.

You may consider it ethical for a U.S. citizen to seek to undermine the authority of a sitting president via direct communications with a foreign power, but I sure as hell don't, and neither do a whole lot of other people.  

I hear your point about wholesale attacks on a hated president/administration,  but in this case, as Sal predicts, I think there's a very good chance your protests are going to be thoroughly drowned out by what comes next.  You may want to cease sticking your neck out with your righteous rant, stop and just listen for a while.   Mark my words.

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RealLindaL wrote:
PkrBum wrote:How is that so different from Obama caught on mic offering missle relief in exchange for space during the 2012 campaign? It not. The reason that we can't control our politicians is because idiots only care when it's the other guy doing it. Yea team..!! We all lose. Let's use one set of standards.

Are you totally deaf, dumb and blind??  ASKED AND ANSWERED, by me and others.  Obama was the PRESIDENT at the time, GET IT??????????  No, you don't -- and you're starting to sound a lot dumber than I thought you were.

He was running for President... which means that the relief he promised was actually more tangible than that of a person just running out of the blue. So again... he offered relief of missle programs in exchange for relief from the Russians during the election. One set of standards please.

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Flynn resigned! Very Happy

It's gonna be a good day tater.

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panhandler wrote:Flynn resigned!  Very Happy  

It's gonna be a good day tater.



Hopefully Flynn is just the first of many #45 dominoes falling. Laughing

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Telstar wrote:
panhandler wrote:Flynn resigned!  Very Happy  

It's gonna be a good day tater.



Hopefully Flynn is just the first of many #45 dominoes falling. Laughing

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PkrBum wrote:
RealLindaL wrote:
PkrBum wrote:How is that so different from Obama caught on mic offering missle relief in exchange for space during the 2012 campaign? It not. The reason that we can't control our politicians is because idiots only care when it's the other guy doing it. Yea team..!! We all lose. Let's use one set of standards.

Are you totally deaf, dumb and blind??  ASKED AND ANSWERED, by me and others.  Obama was the PRESIDENT at the time, GET IT??????????  No, you don't -- and you're starting to sound a lot dumber than I thought you were.

He was running for President... which means that the relief he promised was actually more tangible than that of a person just running out of the blue. So again... he offered relief of missle programs in exchange for relief from the Russians during the election. One set of standards please.

He was running for president and also WAS president -- and had full authority to negotiate with foreign powers. You are just plain WRONG on this one.

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PkrBum wrote:
RealLindaL wrote:
PkrBum wrote:How is that so different from Obama caught on mic offering missle relief in exchange for space during the 2012 campaign? It not. The reason that we can't control our politicians is because idiots only care when it's the other guy doing it. Yea team..!! We all lose. Let's use one set of standards.

Are you totally deaf, dumb and blind??  ASKED AND ANSWERED, by me and others.  Obama was the PRESIDENT at the time, GET IT??????????  No, you don't -- and you're starting to sound a lot dumber than I thought you were.

He was running for President... which means that the relief he promised was actually more tangible than that of a person just running out of the blue. So again... he offered relief of missle programs in exchange for relief from the Russians during the election. One set of standards please.

That made absolutely no sense, Pkr. What did Flynn offer Russia in exchange for lifting sanctions?

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Flynn resigns for lying exactly 2 weeks after Sally Yates is fired for telling the truth.

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polecat wrote:Flynn resigns for lying exactly 2 weeks after Sally Yates is fired for telling the truth.

Poetic injustice.

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When they said the situation was 'fluid' Were they thinking of #45's golden showers? confused

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OMG Tel, you are SO bad. Wink

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Apparently, the Justice department had additional ammo, and when she was fired for allegedly not implementing the ban, there was more going on, but what Conway said this morning on CNN, it was not the conversation with the Russians which was the problem. It was not remembering or lying to Vice President Pence. Pence is definitely a Neocon, and has no love for Russia and was uncomfortable with Flynn. This is more about internal power struggles than anything else.

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http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-white-house-faces-flurry-of-probes-after-flynn-resigns/ar-AAmWuVB?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=U348DHP

(Bloomberg) -- Michael Flynn’s abrupt ouster from President Donald Trump’s top national security post prompted a flurry of Republicans calling for a deeper look into the administration’s relations with Russia and Moscow’s alleged interference in U.S. politics.

Senate Foreign Relations Chairman Bob Corker led the way, saying it’s time for Congress to launch a more comprehensive probe into Russian contacts with Trump allies, while Republican Roy Blunt of Missouri, who sits on the Senate Intelligence Committee, said it’s "likely" that Flynn will be called to testify before the panel. Blunt’s committee is already looking into the election-meddling allegations against Russia.

Senate Armed Services Chairman John McCain of Arizona and Lindsey Graham of South Carolina also said Tuesday that Flynn’s resignation is a critical turning point.

The Republican chairman of the House Oversight Committee meanwhile called for a look at Mar-a-Lago security, and the Office of Government Ethics said that top Trump aide Kellyanne Conway probably violated ethics rules by promoting Ivanka Trump’s clothing line in a television interview inside the White House. An administration official confirmed that Flynn was interviewed by the FBI after he became national security adviser regarding his conversations with Russia’s ambassador to the U.S., Sergey Kislyak, prior to Trump’s inauguration.

The New York Times reported earlier on the FBI interview.

These developments contributed to a sense of an administration back on its heels amid questions about its handling of a range of issues, including high-level diplomatic contacts with Russia and a North Korean missile launch.

Democrats, too, stepped up their attacks -- eager to turn the questions from Flynn to Trump himself, over what he knew and when about his national security adviser’s contacts with the Russians.

‘Matter of Trust’

White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer defended the administration’s actions, saying that Flynn hadn’t violated any laws.

“The issue pure and simple came down to a matter of trust,” Spicer said at a news briefing Tuesday. "That’s why the president asked for his resignation and he got it."

Spicer said that the White House had been "reviewing and evaluating" Flynn’s situation "for a few weeks trying to ascertain the truth," the first time the administration had made any such admission. Trump told reporters on board Air Force One on Friday that he was unaware of a report that the Department of Justice had warned the White House about Flynn’s contacts with Kislyak and that he would "look into that."

The Justice Department informed the White House last month that Flynn had discussed U.S. sanctions with the Russian envoy and misled officials about the conversation, according to a U.S. law enforcement official with knowledge of the matter. That warning was delivered to the White House counsel’s office by Sally Yates, the acting attorney general, the official said.

Spicer said on Tuesday that the warning arrived on Jan. 26, and that Trump was briefed on it "immediately." He questioned why the Justice Department waited to provide the information 11 days after Vice President Mike Pence defended Flynn in an appearance on CBS’s "Face the Nation." In the interview, Pence asserted that the national security adviser did not discuss sanctions with Kislyak.

"Where was the Department of Justice?" Spicer said.

Trump fired Yates on Jan. 30 after she said she wouldn’t defend his executive order barring entry to the U.S. by people from seven predominantly Muslim nations.

Flynn Testimony

Corker, who Trump at one point weighed as a possible secretary of state, said that in the wake of the Flynn revelations, an ongoing Senate Intelligence Committee investigation of Russia’s actions is no longer sufficient. Flynn should testify as part of a broader examination, said Corker of Tennessee.

“I think there needs to be fulsome investigation on all angles relative to nefarious activities that were taking place with Russia, beginning in March but even going back before that time,” Corker said. He said Flynn’s resignation “heightens” the need for GOP leaders to conduct an expanded probe, although he stopped short of endorsing an independent commission as Democrats have demanded.

At the same time, a number of other Republicans, including the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, are still downplaying the need to investigate Flynn and said any probe should instead be focused on news leaks about Flynn’s phone call.

Devin Nunes, a California Republican, said the leaks are “absolutely” the most troubling part of the episode. "We don’t even know this is true,” he said. “We’re going off press reports. So we want to get to the bottom of it."

But McCain said in a statement that Flynn’s White House exit “raises further questions about the Trump administration’s intentions toward Vladimir Putin’s Russia, including statements by the president suggesting moral equivalence between the United States and Russia despite its invasion of Ukraine, annexation of Crimea, threats to our NATO allies, and attempted interference in American elections.”

Graham told CNN Tuesday that tough questions remain about whether anyone else in the White House knew about Flynn’s conversation with Russia’s ambassador shortly after President Barack Obama announced a series of sanctions against Russia ahead of Trump’s inauguration. Flynn in his resignation letter said he had “inadvertently” misinformed Pence and Trump about discussing sanctions during his talk with the official.

"I think most Americans have a right to know whether or not this was a General Flynn rogue maneuver or was he basically speaking for somebody else in the White House," Graham said. He also said lawmakers should have access to transcripts of Flynn’s conversations.

Don’t ‘Pre-Judge’

House Speaker Paul Ryan urged all sides to give the administration time to explain more about what transpired.

“I think it’s really important that as soon as they realized that they were being misled by the national security adviser, they asked for his resignation,” the Wisconsin Republican told reporters Tuesday. “I can’t speak to the rest of the circumstances. I think we need to get all of that information before we pre-judge anything.”

Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky said the Intelligence panel is already looking at questions of Russian involvement in the U.S. election and added that it’s "highly likely that they would want to look at this episode as well."

House Oversight Chairman Jason Chaffetz of Utah rejected the idea of an independent investigation or a probe by his panel. "That situation is taking care of itself," he told reporters.

Chaffetz also released a letter asking White House Chief of Staff Reince Priebus to tell the committee whether Trump and other officials viewed or discussed any classified information while hosting Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe in the Mar-a-Lago dining room in Florida Saturday night after receiving word of a missile launch by North Korea.

Some members of the conservative House Freedom Caucus said intelligence agencies should provide the facts to the relevant committees to decide whether there should be an investigation of Flynn’s conversations with Russian officials. They stopped short of criticizing Flynn’s actions, and said there needs to be a better understanding of the extent to which sanctions were actually discussed.

“It’s incumbent upon the intelligence community and the intelligence committee to work together so we know whether an investigation is warranted,” Justin Amash, a Republican representative from Michigan, told reporters.

“If it is impactful, if it goes beyond the scope of what I imagine the Intelligence chairman thinks that it should, I suspect there’s going to be a look-see,” Scott Perry of Pennsylvania said. “But I also get the impression that it was the Russian ambassador that brought up sanctions and that Flynn just acknowledged it and moved on.”

Independent Commission

Democrats in both chambers said the matter underscores the need for a broader investigation of Russia’s activities that would be akin to the outside bipartisan commission that examined the Sept. 11 attacks on New York and Washington.

"If the speaker is unwilling to support a full congressional investigation, then he should get out of the way and allow an independent commission to look into the matter,” Representative Adam Schiff of California, the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, said in a statement. “Russia is a large and growing threat to the United States and liberal democracy around the world.”

So far, GOP leaders have said that the Senate Intelligence Committee will continue to lead the main probe into any contacts between presidential campaigns and Russian officials. The panel announced its probe weeks ago, backed up by subpoena power. Panel Chairman Richard Burr, a North Carolina Republican, said Tuesday that the panel will conduct “active oversight” on the Flynn issue and that he’s inquiring about any transcripts of Flynn’s conversations.

"I can’t verify the facts in the stories but I’ll go where intelligence and the agencies lead us," Burr said.

"I think it’s likely" that Flynn will be asked to testify before the intelligence panel, Blunt of Missouri told reporters.

The intelligence panel’s top Democrat, Mark Warner of Virginia, said he and Burr will meet later Tuesday to discuss the parameters of their investigation. Warner said he views the Flynn resignation as "part of what’s going to be a much larger investigation,” and that Flynn should testify “the sooner the better” as part of it.

‘Effort to Bury This’

But Democrat Chris Murphy of Connecticut dismissed the Senate Intelligence probe as "just an effort to bury this" and that he would prefer a joint committee with the Intelligence, Armed Services and Foreign Relations panels.

He said the situation is getting more serious "by the hour."

"The White House knew that Flynn had lied and they didn’t do anything about it until they got caught," Murphy said.

Eliot Engel, the top Democrat on the House Foreign Affairs Committee, was even blunter.

"I cannot remember in my lifetime another crisis, and that includes Watergate, that’s more serious than this one is right now," he said at a news conference.

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, asked by a reporter during a news conference about the prospect of Democrats seeking impeachment, snapped, "We’re not here to talk about that. We’re here to talk about accountability to the American people. "

(Updates with FBI interview of Flynn in fourth paragraph.)

--With assistance from Billy House Anna Edgerton Sahil Kapur and Laura Curtis

To contact the reporters on this story: Laura Litvan in Washington at llitvan@bloomberg.net, Margaret Talev in Washington at mtalev@bloomberg.net, Steven Dennis in Washington at sdennis17@bloomberg.net.

To contact the editors responsible for this story: Kevin Whitelaw at kwhitelaw@bloomberg.net, Alex Wayne, Laurie Asseo

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