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America's military once was courageous and honorable

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I have the utmost respect for those military officers and enlisted men who fought in the Civil War. Their courage was beyond anything I can imagine. I see the way war is fought now and how cowardly our participants have become where they can slaughter opponents with 10-1 superiority, and have total air and ground superiority. There is no courage in this slaughter.

However, during the Civil War officers were shot leading their men. People volunteered from both sides because of strong beliefs. They rarely fought battles which were above three to one, and often the underdog would carry the day. Soldiers blindly marching against the walls at Fredricksburg and Cold Harbor, or Pickett's men crossing a mile of open ground knowing that they were sitting ducks. These men came back from war with honor and courage. It has been almost seventy years since this nation has fought a war where we did not have the 10-1 advantage, where we could not destroy the enemy with air superiority, and not fear real historical battle. The honor and courage of war has been replaced by profit and carnage of civilians which is disgusting. We have become the evil which we pretend to honor with false patriotism and bluster. When I see one general rallying his troops in a hail of gunfire for a cause of deep belief I see courage. I only see cowardice and slaughter now, and the Rush to shame a QB in San Francisco only enrages me more........there is little honor and courage in this nation, and I wish we could learn from the Civil War about real sacrifices and about the real cost of war.

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I think you stated that very eloquently. And I agree.

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I think you stated that very eloquently. And I agree.


I think most Americans who studied the Civil War saw real courage. Every family in America lost family members and had some skin in the game. The death toll was close to 6 million in today's population, yet today we honor five thousand deaths and five trillion debt which converts to pure profit for the special interests who keep this complete fabrication and fantasy that our warriors and war have honor. It has been 70 years when we have not been fighting wars as a colonial proxy where we had absolute air superiority and technological superiority where honor has been substituted for mass civilian deaths as the generals do not lead, the officers do not lead, our men do not enter a fair fight, but a total advantage to this nation to slaughter and create profits and more debt for this once great nation. We need to understand the pretend courage and militarism this nation has become addicted to make the illusion fact.....when nothing could be further from the truth....we have become a nation of cowards.....and instead of leaders with their hat on their sword leading the battle, we have folks manipulating drones from a thousand miles away, and then honoring the murderers.......enough.....we need to learn real courage from our civil war and also learn the real horrors of war.

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You're straight up so FOS with your eyes turning brown and given that you had no balls to ever serve and were ate up with the mighty dollar, I will give you one example of an officer leading the way.

This is a MOH citation. If you have to ask, then you aren't worthy to read it. Oh that's right you aren't worthy period and a guy like Lt Murphy banged your GF most likely and that's why you loathe the military as you do.


Official Citation

LIEUTENANT MICHAEL P. MURPHY
UNITED STATES NAVY
For service set forth in the following

CITATION:

FOR CONSPICUOUS GALLANTRY AND INTREPIDITY AT THE RISK OF HIS LIFE ABOVE AND BEYOND THE CALL OF DUTY AS THE LEADER OF A SPECIAL RECONNAISSANCE ELEMENT WITH NAVAL SPECIAL WARFARE TASK UNIT AFGHANISTAN ON 27 AND 28 JUNE 2005. WHILE LEADING A MISSION TO LOCATE A HIGH-LEVEL ANTI-COALITION MILITIA LEADER, LIEUTENANT MURPHY DEMONSTRATED EXTRAORDINARY HEROISM IN THE FACE OF GRAVE DANGER IN THE VICINITY OF ASADABAD, KONAR PROVINCE, AFGHANISTAN. ON 28 JUNE 2005, OPERATING IN AN EXTREMELY RUGGED ENEMY-CONTROLLED AREA, LIEUTENANT MURPHY’S TEAM WAS DISCOVERED BY ANTI-COALITION MILITIA SYMPATHIZERS, WHO REVEALED THEIR POSITION TO TALIBAN FIGHTERS. AS A RESULT, BETWEEN 30 AND 40 ENEMY FIGHTERS BESIEGED HIS FOUR-MEMBER TEAM. DEMONSTRATING EXCEPTIONAL RESOLVE, LIEUTENANT MURPHY VALIANTLY LED HIS MEN IN ENGAGING THE LARGE ENEMY FORCE. THE ENSUING FIERCE FIREFIGHT RESULTED IN NUMEROUS ENEMY CASUALTIES, AS WELL AS THE WOUNDING OF ALL FOUR MEMBERS OF THE TEAM. IGNORING HIS OWN WOUNDS AND DEMONSTRATING EXCEPTIONAL COMPOSURE, LIEUTENANT MURPHY CONTINUED TO LEAD AND ENCOURAGE HIS MEN. WHEN THE PRIMARY COMMUNICATOR FELL MORTALLY WOUNDED, LIEUTENANT MURPHY REPEATEDLY ATTEMPTED TO CALL FOR ASSISTANCE FOR HIS BELEAGUERED TEAMMATES. REALIZING THE IMPOSSIBILITY OF COMMUNICATING IN THE EXTREME TERRAIN, AND IN THE FACE OF ALMOST CERTAIN DEATH, HE FOUGHT HIS WAY INTO OPEN TERRAIN TO GAIN A BETTER POSITION TO TRANSMIT A CALL. THIS DELIBERATE, HEROIC ACT DEPRIVED HIM OF COVER, EXPOSING HIM TO DIRECT ENEMY FIRE. FINALLY ACHIEVING CONTACT WITH HIS HEADQUARTERS, LIEUTENANT MURPHY MAINTAINED HIS EXPOSED POSITION WHILE HE PROVIDED HIS LOCATION AND REQUESTED IMMEDIATE SUPPORT FOR HIS TEAM. IN HIS FINAL ACT OF BRAVERY, HE CONTINUED TO ENGAGE THE ENEMY UNTIL HE WAS MORTALLY WOUNDED, GALLANTLY GIVING HIS LIFE FOR HIS COUNTRY AND FOR THE CAUSE OF FREEDOM. BY HIS SELFLESS LEADERSHIP, COURAGEOUS ACTIONS, AND EXTRAORDINARY DEVOTION TO DUTY, LIEUTENANT MURPHY REFLECTED GREAT CREDIT UPON HIMSELF AND UPHELD THE HIGHEST TRADITIONS OF THE UNITED STATES NAVAL SERVICE.

SIGNED GEORGE W. BUSH

Biography

Lieutenant (SEAL) Michael P. Murphy
May 7, 1976 - June 28, 2005
Lt. Michael P. Murphy, fondly referred to by friends and family as “Murph,” was born May 7, 1976 in Smithtown, N.Y. and grew up in the New York City commuter town of Patchogue, N.Y. on Long Island.

Murphy grew up active in sports and attended Patchogue's Saxton Middle School. In high school, Murphy took a summer lifeguard job at the Brookhaven town beach in Lake Ronkonkoma -- a job he returned to each summer through his college years. Murphy graduated from Patchogue-Medford High School in 1994.

Murphy attended Penn State University, where he was an exceptional all-around athlete and student, excelling at ice hockey and graduating with honors. He was an avid reader; his reading tastes ranged from the Greek historian Herodotus to Tolstoy's "War and Peace." Murphy's favorite book was Steven Pressfield’s “Gates of Fire,” about the Spartan stand at Thermopylae. In 1998, he graduated with a pair of Bachelor of Arts degrees from Penn State -- in political science and psychology.

Following graduation, he was accepted to several law schools, but instead he changed course. Slightly built at 5 feet 10 inches, Murphy decided to attend SEAL mentoring sessions at the U.S. Merchant Marine Academy at Kings Point with his sights on becoming a U.S. Navy SEAL. Murphy accepted an appointment to the Navy's Officer Candidate School at Pensacola, Fla., in September, 2000.

Murphy was commissioned as an ensign in the Navy on Dec. 13, 2000, and began Basic Underwater Demolition/SEAL (BUD/S) training in Coronado, Calif., in January 2001, graduating with Class 236. BUD/S is a six-month training course and the first step to becoming a Navy SEAL.

Upon graduation from BUD/S, he attended the Army Jump School, SEAL Qualification Training and SEAL Delivery Vehicle (SDV) school. Lt. Murphy earned his SEAL Trident and checked on board SDV Team (SDVT) 1 in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii in July of 2002. In October of 2002, he deployed with Foxtrot Platoon to Jordan as the liaison officer for Exercise Early Victor.

Following his tour with SDVT-1, Lt. Murphy was assigned to Special Operations Central Command in Florida and deployed to Qatar in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom. After returning from Qatar, Lt. Murphy was deployed to the Horn of Africa, Djibouti, to assist in the operational planning of future SDV missions.

In early 2005, Murphy was assigned to SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team 1 as assistant officer in charge of ALFA Platoon and deployed to Afghanistan in support of Operation Enduring Freedom.

On June 28, 2005, Lt. Murphy was the officer-in-charge of a four-man SEAL element in support of Operation Red Wing tasked with finding key anti-coalition militia commander near Asadabad, Afghanistan. Shortly after inserting into the objective area, the SEALs were spotted by three goat herders who were initially detained and then released. It is believed the goat herders immediately reported the SEALs’ presence to Taliban fighters.

A fierce gun battle ensued on the steep face of the mountain between the SEALs and a much larger enemy force. Despite the intensity of the firefight and suffering grave gunshot wounds himself, Murphy is credited with risking his own life to save the lives of his teammates. Murphy, intent on making contact with headquarters, but realizing this would be impossible in the extreme terrain where they were fighting, unhesitatingly and with complete disregard for his own life moved into the open, where he could gain a better position to transmit a call to get help for his men.

Moving away from the protective mountain rocks, he knowingly exposed himself to increased enemy gunfire. This deliberate and heroic act deprived him of cover and made him a target for the enemy. While continuing to be fired upon, Murphy made contact with the SOF Quick Reaction Force at Bagram Air Base and requested assistance. He calmly provided his unit’s location and the size of the enemy force while requesting immediate support for his team. At one point, he was shot in the back causing him to drop the transmitter. Murphy picked it back up, completed the call and continued firing at the enemy who was closing in. Severely wounded, Lt. Murphy returned to his cover position with his men and continued the battle.

As a result of Murphy’s call, an MH-47 Chinook helicopter, with eight additional SEALs and eight Army Night Stalkers aboard, was sent in as part of the QRF to extract the four embattled SEALs. As the Chinook drew nearer to the fight, a rocket-propelled grenade hit the helicopter, causing it to crash and killing all 16 men aboard.

On the ground and nearly out of ammunition, the four SEALs, continued to fight. By the end of a two-hour gunfight that careened through the hills and over cliffs, Murphy, Gunner’s Mate 2nd Class (SEAL) Danny Dietz and Sonar Technician 2nd Class (SEAL) Matthew Axelson had fallen. An estimated 35 Taliban were also dead. The fourth SEAL, Hospital Corpsman 2nd Class (SEAL) Marcus Luttrell, was blasted over a ridge by a rocket-propelled grenade and knocked unconscious. Though severely wounded, the fourth SEAL and sole survivor, Luttrell, was able to evade the enemy for nearly a day; after which local nationals came to his aide, carrying him to a nearby village where they kept him for three more days. Luttrell was rescued by U.S. Forces on July 2, 2005.

By his undaunted courage, intrepid fighting spirit and inspirational devotion to his men in the face of certain death, Lt. Murphy was able to relay the position of his unit, an act that ultimately led to the rescue of Luttrell and the recovery of the remains of the three who were killed in the battle.

Lt. Murphy was buried at Calverton National Cemetery less than 20 miles from his childhood home. Lt. Murphy’s other personal awards include the Purple Heart, Combat Action Ribbon, the Joint Service Commendation Medal, the Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medal, Afghanistan Campaign Ribbon and National Defense Service Medal.

Lt. Murphy is survived by his mother Maureen Murphy; his father Dan Murphy; and his brother John Murphy. Dan and Maureen Murphy, who were divorced in 1999, remain close friends and continue to live in N.Y. Their son John serves in a law enforcement capacity in the state of NY.

Tellthetruth wrote:You're straight up so FOS with your eyes turning brown and given that you had no balls to ever serve

When you're fully convinced that the current Commander-in-Chief is so evil and corrupt and anti-American wanting to turn the country into communism and Sharia Law,  not to mention he's not even eligible for the office because he wasn't born here;  why would you not have the balls to refuse to do his bidding for him?

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Sorry Pace, I am telling the truth. You want to make a hero out of close to 100k civilians died in a colonial war for oil which was not defending America but providing a revenue source for MIC.........We can invade almost any nation in this world and have air superiority and our "warriors" have no more courage that a kid playing a video game, and the courage of occupation of other nations is shameful.......civil war soldiers had morality. Civil war soldiers believed in their respective causes. Civil war soldiers were not feeding a military industrial complex which was causing the war. Civilians were not anonymously bombed and killed under the guise of courage and honor. A civil war soldier saw real courage......not a photo op and purple hearts which are forged.....they had leaders who attacked in the front.

The bottom line is the American Military propagates a cowardly policy which has melded with the dishonorable MIC which you and so many potato peelers want to compare your service to real courage.....real honor......real patriotism.....it is a paycheck for you.....it always was.....it is a paycheck for the vast majority of participants......it is a pay day for war manufacutrers and weapon systems......just a pay check.....this whole ungodly curse on the world is American militarism which has meandered so far from the honor of the Civil War that it is not recognizable. It is time to stop the lies......it is time like IKE warned us to tear down this evil system......sorry Pace it always was about a paycheck.

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Bob wrote:

When you're fully convinced that the current Commander-in-Chief is so evil and corrupt and anti-American wanting to turn the country into communism and Sharia Law,  not to mention he's not even eligible for the office because he wasn't born here;  why would you not have the balls to refuse to do his bidding for him?

Until I get an unlawful order, I will follow what I get. Obama has yet to give myself or anyone else I have served with an order that violates any Law of Armed Conflict. I don't have to agree with his politics to do my job of which I will retire from in 2017. My saving grace is that his name will not be on my retirement order, certificate of service, or MSM awarded on that date of separation.

Seaoat, don't comment to me. I don't critique your business acumen and you will not judge my service nor my peers who have been putting foot to ass so that you had enough money to live out your life and afford the medicine you bitch about but can afford to pay for with the hoard of money you stuffed into the Sears mattress you bought in 1970 and still probably have because you are too cheap to buy another.

Telling the truth? You wouldn't know the military truth of anything unless is was a story someone told you about their own service.The only thing you know is what you see on TV. You're not even a JV player when it comes to that. Heck, you never made the team. You watch from the sidelines and then complain when someone doesn't perform as you would expect saying you could have done better, but weren't even good enough for the coaches to stick around as team manager washing jocks and jerseys. For the remainder of your life do your best to ignore my posts. I'm sure going to ignore the painkiller induced rants you have been come to be known for most recently. You did post coherently up until a few months ago, maybe as late as this time last year. Again, you're not even JV, you don't exist. And as I finish this reply, have a nice life as I am done responding to you whatsoever. I wish you really didn't hate life like the tone of your posts demonstrate. Get off the message boards and enjoy the time you have left. I sure wouldn't be here as a terminally ill person who keeps proclaiming that you are almost gone. I would be out enjoying the time I have left with my family. This place is the last area where I would come knowing that it could all end in days, weeks or even months. This place surely can't and shouldn't be one of your last memories of your time here before you meet your maker. I'll pray you take heed to these words.

I and many other Americans are tired of the brainwashing and the false narrative. Its not about me Pace, it is about my grandchildren who are living in a nation which kills innocents and is a militarized society which is evil to its core. I get where T was before he died. He was sickened by the line of chit he was given and the innocents he caused harm to while sitting on a boat miles from where the innocents died. I am tired of honoring anybody who is part of this horrible war machine we have created to protect colonial interests the very thing our founding fathers fought against. Soldiers from the Civil War had honor. They recognized courage like the sole flag bearer union soldier who kept marching to the rebel line, unaware of his entire regiment was slaughtered behind him as he kept marching to the cheers of the rebels who would not shoot him until he came to the earthworks and looked around as they cheered him and told him to go back......he simply gave them a salute and returned to his lines.....honor, courage and bravery.....there is none of the same today.....simply cowardice, paychecks, and colonial goals where we have become the king.......you take this personal, and refuse to look at the big picture and continue to justify this abomination.....I am but a bit of dust who has faith that there is something more than this world and that the values I learned in church are real.....I am tired of the fascist cowardly world we live, and fear for my grandchildren because America has allowed evil to rot us within.

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The horror of crossing an open field knowing that there will be no medical evacuation, that death will be painful and slow in the July heat, knowing that nothing stands in front of you but the entire union army with cannon full of cannister and shell........marching into certain death because of principles which would not let them let down their state or fellow soldier......vs a helicopter dropping some highly equipped American soldiers into a nation thousands of miles away which poses not threat to America and goat herders who see innocents dying all around them and the foreign invader...........heroism has to be put into context, and if the context is a false narrative, then the resulting military society and the horrors of war exported by a nation trapped in the evil control of a few for profit............to compare the two courageous acts is absurd.......there is no honor in American war today. NONE. We have lost all sense of honor. We need to cut our military spending, and please stop this worshiping of false prophets.

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Nationalism is a very strong urge for many.  And of course the flag waving isn't confined to only our country.  I'm sure even more flags were waving in Nazi
Germany and Imperial Japan.

Courage is having the balls to not let someone else make your life and death decisions for you.

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.10 to 1? LOL Yep Sissy ass cowards.......https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chosin_Reservoir

On 27 November, the Chinese 9th Army surprised the US X Corps commanded by Major General Edward Almond at the Chosin Reservoir area. A brutal 17-day battle in freezing weather soon followed. In the period between 27 November and 13 December 1950, 30,000[4] United Nations troops (later nicknamed "The Chosin Few") under the field command of Major General Oliver P. Smith were encircled and attacked by approximately 120,000[6] Chinese troops under the command of Song Shi-Lun, who had been ordered by Mao Zedong to destroy the UN forces. The UN forces were nonetheless able to make a fighting withdrawal and broke out of the encirclement while inflicting crippling losses on the Chinese. While the battle resulted in the Chinese pushing the UN out of North Korea, it was a Pyrrhic victory. The evacuation of the X Corps from the port of Hungnam marked the complete withdrawal of UN troops from North Korea.

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The Monolithic Communist threat, and when the Chinese gave us clear warning to not cross the northern most river in Korea, they did exactly what the warned us they would do.......our arrogance in colonial conquest actually caused us to fight where we had the disadvantage......the last time that ever happened in close to 70 years......We look for Grenada....Panama........Iraq.......on and on like we looked for a hill in Cuba to aggrandize war and make paper heroes, while the sinking of the Maine remains a mystery.

For that American soldier.........was he fighting for his state? was he fighting for his nation which was threatened by North Koreans? He was fighting for the Military Industrial Complex which had created this illusion that there was a monolithic threat to America by all these nationalities which had no historic alliances other than some ideas which like those of Muslims today were vilified into an enemy which required us to invade another country, not to save them from some foreign enemy, but to intervene in a civil war in a nation. America has become a colonial imperial force and we have become the British who our forefathers revolted.......and within that context of 10 to 1 superiority we have carried death to civilians and innocents all under the guise of the illusion of militarism is good for America.....it is not......it is time for plowshares and courage.......it is time for America to reject this notion that invading other nations and killing innocents is somehow courageous and honorable. There is no honor in what we have been doing, and now at the Trump rally in Arizona as the crowd yells in unison.....build that wall.......we have become the fascist threat to the world when 70 plus years ago this nation fought with honor and courage to defeat the same........these are shameful times.

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2S0 wouldn't have been able to even hold this camera much less contribute to the battle. What a Jabroni...

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2S0 wouldn't have been able to even hold this camera much less contribute to the battle. What a Jabroni...


I would have a very hard time justifying killing. What did somebody from Iraq do to me? What did they do to my family? What did they do to my state or nation? Nothing, so would I have volunteered to go invade an innocent nation who has done nothing to America other than having oil reserves? nope......but I am always amused that the Wally Cox type person joins the military and becomes something brave, courageous, and strong, and that those who choose not to join are weak and cowardly.......keep deluding yourself........the toughest people I have ever met would never be accepted in the military, and some of the biggest losers I have ever met were admitted......like my son's friend who is on full military psychological disability sucking on the government teat when he was a full F up before he enlisted(he had no options), and remains the very same person he was before enlisting. So to answer your question.......I would never have enlisted for the Iraq war, but if this nation was threatened, truly threatened I would have served.......but it does not matter what I do because without political change in this nation the militarism and fantasy will continue that the MIC can pick our nation's pockets and kids with no options looking for a paycheck can become mercenaries to fight in another colonial war.....splendid.

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2seaoat wrote:2S0 wouldn't have been able to even hold this camera much less contribute to the battle. What a Jabroni...


I would have a very hard time justifying killing.   What did somebody from Iraq do to me?  What did they do to my family?   What did they do to my state or nation?   Nothing, so would I have volunteered to go invade an innocent nation who has done nothing to America other than having oil reserves? nope......but I am always amused that the Wally Cox type person joins the military and becomes something brave, courageous, and strong, and that those who choose not to join are weak and cowardly.......keep deluding yourself........the toughest people I have ever met would never be accepted in the military, and some of the biggest losers I have ever met were admitted......like my son's friend who is on full military psychological disability sucking on the government teat when he was a full F up before he enlisted(he had no options), and remains the very same person he was before enlisting.  So to answer your question.......I would never have enlisted for the Iraq war, but if this nation was threatened, truly threatened I would have served.......but it does not matter what I do because without political change in this nation the militarism and fantasy will continue that the MIC can pick our nation's pockets and kids with no options looking for a paycheck can become mercenaries to fight in another colonial war.....splendid.

I didn't ask you a question. Your total lack of comprehension about why folks (whites, blacks, hispanics, asians, males, females, poor, middle class, even wealthy, etc) join the military are unknowns to you.

You are in it for you - OK we get it.

That doesn't give you the right to misrepresent the intentions of others who have a different outlook on why they do things. That would make you a bigot, oh wait.....

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Seaoat has a Monday morning armchair quarterback, hindsight is 20/20, vision of everything in which he was too wussified to participate. Who gives a crap about his number? He continues to vilify good men and women, representing quite a beautiful rainbow of ethnic background, who did the right thing for themselves at the time they chose to serve. The willingness to serve is the key. How wonderful he can pick and choose, in hindsight, the "best" war or the "best" soldiers.



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That doesn't give you the right to misrepresent the intentions of others who have a different outlook on why they do things. That would make you a bigot, oh wait.....


It certainly gives me the right to fight the illusion which you say is a misrepresentation of the mercenary military we have created.....gun for hire. Of course I cannot judge a kid who has no options.....whose father took off and whose mother is on state aid with a drug problem. The mercenary job to kill innocents in a nation which does not threaten this nation or our people becomes just one more hired gun for imperial America as we invade another innocent nation and watch children bombed in hospitals and listen to former mercenaries tell a citizen he does not have a "right" to take a contrary stand to the brainwashing which is so morally wrong. Sorry, bud, but there was a time that service to one's country was the pinnacle of honor and courage, but in a mercenary era of teat suckers and colonial conquest let us not be confused for a second in your brave new world.....there is nothing brave or new about what you have participated in.......tyranny has always existed, and thankfully some of us still have the "right" to dissent the horrible policy choices of this nation. I just laugh at folks who try to wussify people who have not served in the Military, like the 1% who did represent the toughest Americans......gawd you live in a bubble.

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2seaoat wrote:That doesn't give you the right to misrepresent the intentions of others who have a different outlook on why they do things. That would make you a bigot, oh wait.....


It certainly gives me the right to fight the illusion which you say is a misrepresentation of the mercenary military we have created.....gun for hire.   Of course I cannot judge a kid who has no options.....whose father took off and whose mother is on state aid with a drug problem.   The mercenary job to kill innocents in a nation which does not threaten this nation or our people becomes just one more hired gun for imperial America as we invade another innocent nation and watch children bombed in hospitals and listen to former mercenaries tell a citizen he does not have a "right" to take a contrary stand to the brainwashing which is so morally wrong.   Sorry, bud, but there was a time that service to one's country was the pinnacle of honor and courage, but in a mercenary era of teat suckers and colonial conquest let us not be confused for a second in your brave new world.....there is nothing brave or new about what you have participated in.......tyranny has always existed, and thankfully some of us still have the "right" to dissent the horrible policy choices of this nation.  I just laugh at folks who try to wussify people who have not served in the Military, like the 1% who did represent the toughest Americans......gawd you live in a bubble.

Actually you live in your bubble of ignorant bitterness without the capability of understanding reality. Very few military folks actually participate in a war. Most are trained to do regular jobs giving them a skill set and chance at employment when discharged. I only met ONE person out of the thousands I met in the military who liked combat situations. The others despised it. When the civilian sector can provide free training for nuclear power plant operators, jet engine and avionics technicians, electricians, carpenters, truck drivers, ship drivers, and medical specialists while giving them a living wage then that would be a different matter.

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SheWrites wrote:Seaoat has a Monday morning armchair quarterback, hindsight is 20/20, vision of everything in which he was too wussified to participate.  Who gives a crap about his number? He continues to vilify good men and women, representing quite a beautiful rainbow of ethnic background, who did the right thing for themselves at the time they chose to serve.  The willingness to serve is the key.  How wonderful he can pick and choose, in hindsight, the "best" war or the "best" soldiers.  




It's true, when seaoat and I say these things, we have no credibility because we didn't have to experience the totally useless and wrong-headed follies called the Vietnam and Iraq wars.

BUT, that's not true when the same thing was said many times by our good friend Teo. He both talked the talk and walked the walk.
I wish he was still here so he could participate in this thread which he absolutely would have done.

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Most are trained to do regular jobs giving them a skill set and chance at employment when discharged.
The ability of a nation to defend itself is important. The best indicator of military power is economic power. A person serving in the military takes away from GDP. They build nothing. They contribute noting to the economy, but are a huge expense which a nation invests to protect that nation. The problem becomes obvious when the mission to defend become one to export war and colonialism which benefits only the 1% whose wealth is fungible and has NO patriotism or national loyalty. This idea that there are not better job training programs in civilian life which actually contribute to the GDP is bone chilling stupid. We have lost all sense of morality, and we have lost the power to even take back our country as the MIC and special interest keep their mercenary army to exploit and conquer, and the only thing which makes me bitter is the sight of an innocent child being dragged out of a building or hospital that we have bombed which now has become all too frequent as we are frozen in this moral ambiguity, scared of our shadows, as we listen to politicians wanting to bomb ideas and pay for more paid killers. I have studied the Civil War since I was a child. It had so many examples of people literally fighting in the most horrible of combat risking everything, only to quietly return to the farm and be productive citizens. The citizen soldier who fought for principles.....not made up pretend wars which have no purpose of protecting their families, state, or country......just bombing children in another country because they have different ideas.......and the only way this entire charade works is the illusion, that our mercenary force is honorable and should be honored......it should not.....it should be shown in the light of the last fifteen years, where as a country we have sold our soul to the devil......if somebody is not bitter about this past 15 years....they have already sold their soul.

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2seaoat wrote:Most are trained to do regular jobs giving them a skill set and chance at employment when discharged.
The ability of a nation to defend itself is important.   The best indicator of military power is economic power.   A person serving in the military takes away from GDP.   They build nothing.  They contribute noting to the economy, but are a huge expense which a nation invests to protect that nation.   The problem becomes obvious when the mission to defend become one to export war and colonialism which benefits only the 1% whose wealth is fungible and has NO patriotism or national loyalty.  This idea that there are not better job training programs in civilian life which actually contribute to the GDP is bone chilling stupid.   We have lost all sense of morality, and we have lost the power to even take back our country as the MIC and special interest keep their mercenary army to exploit and conquer, and the only thing which makes me bitter is the sight of an innocent child being dragged out of a building or hospital that we have bombed which now has become all too frequent as we are frozen in this moral ambiguity, scared of our shadows, as we listen to politicians wanting to bomb ideas and pay for more paid killers.   I have studied the Civil War since I was a child.   It had so many examples of people literally fighting in the most horrible of combat risking everything, only to quietly return to the farm and be productive citizens.  The citizen soldier who fought for principles.....not made up pretend wars which have no purpose of protecting their families, state, or country......just bombing children in another country because they have different ideas.......and the only way this entire charade works is the illusion, that our mercenary force is honorable and should be honored......it should not.....it should be shown in the light of the last fifteen years, where as a country we have sold our soul to the devil......if somebody is not bitter about this past 15 years....they have already sold their soul.

It took you 330 words to say nothing. Might even be a record for you.
2SO wants to disband the Military because the troops are simply potato peeling automatons for the 1% and the politicians he supports, they contribute nothing because 2SO can’t profit from them. If only all military folks would desert then 2SO could enter his fantasy land where the U.S. couldn’t defend its global interests and become an agrarian economy again. Yes, once we embrace isolationism we will be fine, right 2SO? Once the military is gone I’m sure other belligerent countries would just ignore us. Welcome to the stone age 2SO, that’s where your head is apparently.

The amazing part (not really because 2SO doesn’t understand the implications) is that he thinks it’s the troops fault for fighting a war as they are told by politicians and not the politicians he helped elect and re-elect. That 2SO is part of the problem and has no solutions is now obvious.

What does 2SO know of patriotism and honor? Nothing.

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gatorfan wrote:
where the U.S. couldn’t defend its global interests

Whose interests??

Certainly not mine.

Well done, Gunga Din.

You are a very useful idiot to the corporatist oligarchs.

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Today I learned of a new name to add to my list of the American military heroes I most admire.

Before this,   the name at the top of my list was a Marine Brigadier General named Smedley Butler.

Now I'm adding the name of an Army private,  Desmond Dobbs.

You may not know that name now,  but you will when his story is told in a movie due out in the fall.

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gatorfan wrote:

The amazing part (not really because 2SO doesn’t understand the implications) is that he thinks it’s the troops fault for fighting a war as they are told by politicians and not the politicians he helped elect and re-elect. That 2SO is part of the problem and has no solutions is now obvious.

What does 2SO know of patriotism and honor? Nothing.

Nazi Soldier talking to a German  private citizen who is opposed to Nazi leaders executing a dumbass senseless war:
 "What do you know of patriotism and honor?   Nothing".

And don't tell me it isn't a fair comparison because both those goddamn wars in Vietnam and Iraq were just as mindless and dumbass as the war Hitler and the Nazis started.

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The military is necessary. I do not live in an Ivory tower. It is the extent of militarism which is obscene. I am talking about at least a 25% cut back in our military in the next ten years. This idea of honoring mercenary wars and those who participate in the same is a moral question. I just do not see the need to export war. What happens when we stop fighting wars......shareholders lose money, so MIC is going to keep stoking the immorality. I have no problem killing to defend this nation.....zero problem. I have a huge problem not being able to distinguish proxy wars for MIC profits. This idea of the worship of Military and ex Military.....this is what feeds the horrors we have caused innocent civilians all over the world. Pull back.....pull back some more......modernize and change the paradigm to defense.....not offense. This lock step honoring of war only begets more war.......it has to stop.

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