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How about, a fact check of Biden/BHO speeches, didn't think the media had it in them

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nochain wrote:What is even more painfully obvious is that BHO is a miserable failure as a President and is unlikely to undergo some magical transformation over the next 4 years. He couldn't transform promises into deeds this time due to his inability to gain a consensus in Congress. For crying out loud he has never even had a budget!

How do you expect Obama to get any consensus out of congress when republican leaders are saying things such as "The single most important thing we can achieve is for President Obama to be a one term president"? How does one get cooperation out of that? Note that their goals are not to solve any of the critical problems that were left to this president, nor are they to put America first over all of the political sport.



Last edited by boards of FL on 9/7/2012, 3:59 pm; edited 1 time in total


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PkrBum wrote:
boards of FL wrote:
PkrBum wrote:heh... good luck. I think that if you listen carefully/critically that the message on the left is evolving.

there may be a point that it tests your sensibilities... i hope.

Have we evolved to be more liberal or conservative as a nation over the last 30 years, in your estimation?

liberal/progressive from both parties... and it isn't even close.

Well, top marginal tax rates have certainly fallen precipitously over the last 30 years. Would you say that is a conservative or liberal ideal?


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[quote="boards of FL"]
nochain wrote:What is even more painfully obvious is that BHO is a miserable failure as a President and is unlikely to undergo some magical ]

Hogwash, if BHO hadn't wasted the first year or so with a Dem Congress and Senate on his magic health care bullet he could have made many positive changes. Would you cooperate with someone who cut you out of the picture? Would cooperate when Senate Ldr Reid says "that bill is DOA?" Or is that double standard OK because the Dems did it?

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boards of FL wrote:
PkrBum wrote:
boards of FL wrote:
PkrBum wrote:heh... good luck. I think that if you listen carefully/critically that the message on the left is evolving.

there may be a point that it tests your sensibilities... i hope.

Have we evolved to be more liberal or conservative as a nation over the last 30 years, in your estimation?

liberal/progressive from both parties... and it isn't even close.

Well, top marginal tax rates have certainly fallen precipitously over the last 30 years. Would you say that is a conservative or liberal ideal?

i think that the rate is what it is because the federal govt chose to make it that... it's still a progressive tax code isn't it? don't the top earners pay a much higher rate than low earners? we've argued about tax rates for years now... if there is an optimal rate what is it? i don't think running a dollar through the govt has the most efficient effect on the economy... and i think 2 trillion some odd dollars should be plenty to run the govt. how y'all think removing more money from the private sector can stimulate or grow it is beyond me. a command economy is further signs of progressivism... or whatever y'all want to call it today.

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boards of FL wrote:
nochain wrote:What is even more painfully obvious is that BHO is a miserable failure as a President and is unlikely to undergo some magical transformation over the next 4 years. He couldn't transform promises into deeds this time due to his inability to gain a consensus in Congress. For crying out loud he has never even had a budget!

How do you expect Obama to get any consensus out of congress when republican leaders are saying things such as "The single most important thing we can achieve is for President Obama to be a one term president"? How does one get cooperation out of that? Note that their goals are not to solve any of the critical problems that were left to this president, nor are they to put America first over all of the political sport.


cmon dude... obama's idea of "consensus" was for the right to sit in the back of the bus and shut up.

bush or clinton worked better at building a consensus than obama... but what were you expecting? you elected a man that you knew next to nothing about... congratulations on that btw.

nochain wrote:Hogwash, if BHO hadn't wasted the first year or so with a Dem Congress and Senate on his magic health care bullet he could have made many positive changes. Would you cooperate with someone who cut you out of the picture? Would cooperate when Senate Ldr Reid says "that bill is DOA?" Or is that double standard OK because the Dems did it?

Cut them out of the picture? Do you not remember the reaction from republicans when Obama announced the bi-partisan healthcare summit, which would be broadcast live for everyone to see? Republicans could show up and debate the merits of the healthcare legislation and air out any grievances that they had, such as their touted death panels? Seems like a fairly sensible proposal, right?

It's a trap! This would be even more hilarious if it weren't true!

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-february-11-2010/the-apparent-trap


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PkrBum wrote:i think that the rate is what it is because the federal govt chose to make it that... it's still a progressive tax code isn't it? don't the top earners pay a much higher rate than low earners? we've argued about tax rates for years now... if there is an optimal rate what is it? i don't think running a dollar through the govt has the most efficient effect on the economy... and i think 2 trillion some odd dollars should be plenty to run the govt. how y'all think removing more money from the private sector can stimulate or grow it is beyond me. a command economy is further signs of progressivism... or whatever y'all want to call it today.

But we're talking change here. Progressive tax brackets aren't new. The brackets certainly haven't evolved to be more progressive over the last 30 years. The tax rates have certainly fallen, and at the request of the conservative branch of government.

What about health care? In the 90s, the conservative branch of government was touting what today is known as "Obamacare", only today, they refer to it as communism! Early 90s - free market approach. Today - Communism! And yet the policy is the same. Wouldn't you say we have moved to the right on the healthcare front?


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PkrBum wrote:
boards of FL wrote:
nochain wrote:What is even more painfully obvious is that BHO is a miserable failure as a President and is unlikely to undergo some magical transformation over the next 4 years. He couldn't transform promises into deeds this time due to his inability to gain a consensus in Congress. For crying out loud he has never even had a budget!

How do you expect Obama to get any consensus out of congress when republican leaders are saying things such as "The single most important thing we can achieve is for President Obama to be a one term president"? How does one get cooperation out of that? Note that their goals are not to solve any of the critical problems that were left to this president, nor are they to put America first over all of the political sport.


cmon dude... obama's idea of "consensus" was for the right to sit in the back of the bus and shut up.

bush or clinton worked better at building a consensus than obama... but what were you expecting? you elected a man that you knew next to nothing about... congratulations on that btw.

I dare day this would be a good comparison IF Obama had had the same members of congress in office that Clinton and Bush had. The Republicans are weeding out their moderate/reasonable people and replacing them with lock-step tea party types. That's a big difference.

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[quote="othershoe1030"][quote="PkrBum"][quote="boards of FL"]
nochain wrote: The Republicans are weeding out their moderate/reasonable people and replacing them with lock-step tea party types. That's a big difference.[/color]

I agree that there are too many radical, take no prisoner repubs but there are those on the left that are the same way. Moderates are losing their voice.

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boards of FL wrote:
PkrBum wrote:i think that the rate is what it is because the federal govt chose to make it that... it's still a progressive tax code isn't it? don't the top earners pay a much higher rate than low earners? we've argued about tax rates for years now... if there is an optimal rate what is it? i don't think running a dollar through the govt has the most efficient effect on the economy... and i think 2 trillion some odd dollars should be plenty to run the govt. how y'all think removing more money from the private sector can stimulate or grow it is beyond me. a command economy is further signs of progressivism... or whatever y'all want to call it today.

But we're talking change here. Progressive tax brackets aren't new. The brackets certainly haven't evolved to be more progressive over the last 30 years. The tax rates have certainly fallen, and at the request of the conservative branch of government.

What about health care? In the 90s, the conservative branch of government was touting what today is known as "Obamacare", only today, they refer to it as communism! Early 90s - free market approach. Today - Communism! And yet the policy is the same. Wouldn't you say we have moved to the right on the healthcare front?

lol... see the affordable care act... I'd call that a touch left of right. i won't pretend that if the parties positions were switched that the right wouldn't have done the same thing. while you're watching the ping pong ball go back and forth the table is being fundamentally transformed. lowering tax rates was just another govt intervention trying to "fix" a downturn after dot.com and 911... same thing with the feds manipulating the interest rates. i can barely tell the difference between left and right anymore.

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othershoe1030 wrote:
PkrBum wrote:
boards of FL wrote:
nochain wrote:What is even more painfully obvious is that BHO is a miserable failure as a President and is unlikely to undergo some magical transformation over the next 4 years. He couldn't transform promises into deeds this time due to his inability to gain a consensus in Congress. For crying out loud he has never even had a budget!

How do you expect Obama to get any consensus out of congress when republican leaders are saying things such as "The single most important thing we can achieve is for President Obama to be a one term president"? How does one get cooperation out of that? Note that their goals are not to solve any of the critical problems that were left to this president, nor are they to put America first over all of the political sport.


cmon dude... obama's idea of "consensus" was for the right to sit in the back of the bus and shut up.

bush or clinton worked better at building a consensus than obama... but what were you expecting? you elected a man that you knew next to nothing about... congratulations on that btw.

I dare day this would be a good comparison IF Obama had had the same members of congress in office that Clinton and Bush had. The Republicans are weeding out their moderate/reasonable people and replacing them with lock-step tea party types. That's a big difference.

see the 2008 congressional election results... not much changed from 2006. the left still controlled both parts and in fact gained greater control.

PkrBum wrote:
boards of FL wrote:
PkrBum wrote:i think that the rate is what it is because the federal govt chose to make it that... it's still a progressive tax code isn't it? don't the top earners pay a much higher rate than low earners? we've argued about tax rates for years now... if there is an optimal rate what is it? i don't think running a dollar through the govt has the most efficient effect on the economy... and i think 2 trillion some odd dollars should be plenty to run the govt. how y'all think removing more money from the private sector can stimulate or grow it is beyond me. a command economy is further signs of progressivism... or whatever y'all want to call it today.

But we're talking change here. Progressive tax brackets aren't new. The brackets certainly haven't evolved to be more progressive over the last 30 years. The tax rates have certainly fallen, and at the request of the conservative branch of government.

What about health care? In the 90s, the conservative branch of government was touting what today is known as "Obamacare", only today, they refer to it as communism! Early 90s - free market approach. Today - Communism! And yet the policy is the same. Wouldn't you say we have moved to the right on the healthcare front?

lol... see the affordable care act... I'd call that a touch left of right. i won't pretend that if the parties positions were switched that the right wouldn't have done the same thing. while you're watching the ping pong ball go back and forth the table is being fundamentally transformed. lowering tax rates was just another govt intervention trying to "fix" a downturn after dot.com and 911... same thing with the feds manipulating the interest rates. i can barely tell the difference between left and right anymore.

My point is that taxes have steadily fallen for the last 30 years. This certainly isn't a liberal/progressive ideal. The healthcare debate has shifted so far to the right that we are now adopting the republican healthcare plan of the 90s, only the republicans today call it communism! It's their plan! We just made it out of one war that lasted 8 years and are still engaged in another that has lasted for over 10. The last 30 years are a virtual conservative utopia, and yet all I hear from the right is how we are a blink away from full blown socialism.

*edit: Perhaps it isn't a full blown conservative utopia. They have in fact had to deal with gays getting certain basic rights such as being able to serve openly in the military, and to partake in marriage in certain states.


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